Very, very well said, and agreed on all points. Py...
Jesse · 2006-03-08T13:11:00
Very, very well said, and agreed on all points. Python could user marketing and evangelism - and attacking other languages, or sticking to pure technical merit (ie: my syntax is better than yours) generally doesn't convince those in managerial roles that the language is effective.
Simple things like RAD development, and ROI have to be covered, success cases from high profile companies, example frameworks and applications for people to be able to leverage and showcase to those internally.
-jesse
(The "java is oo cobol" link is broken and mistitl...
Jonathan Ellis · 2006-03-08T15:40:00
(The "java is oo cobol" link is broken and mistitled.)
Excellent post! I believe that a lot of noise is ...
André Roberge · 2006-03-08T15:52:00
Excellent post! I believe that a lot of noise is generated because, as the expression goes, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
Marketing, like many disciplines based on social sciences, is a 'low entry level' discipline; the language used is English. (Programming, engineering and Physics by contrast are 'high entry level' disciplines; they require fluency in an acquired language.) For that reason, any pythonista with an opinion (however uninformed) will believe that he or she knows how Python should be marketed, based on their experience with the language. Unfortunately, most often they (including myself) have very little relevant knowledge about marketing as a professional discipline.
Marketing to a large audience often means creating an artificial "need" for a product, based on something that non-experts find attractive. I think that the iPod is a good example of such a product.
I believe that your list of the most important marketing points is excellent. The challenge for the Python community is, I think, finding the right way to communicate these points to a "general" audience. (People with the required high-level expertise to make their own decisions will not be swayed by this marketing approach; they will choose Python after finding on their own about the relevant language features which you suggest should be left out.)
Might there be some merit in enlisting the efforts...
Anonymous · 2006-03-09T12:56:00
Might there be some merit in enlisting the efforts of those who study, practise or otherwise understand the concepts of marketing?
Perhaps under the umbrella of an SIG, the PSF (forgive the acronyms.. all this talk of marketing has gone to my head) could attract technically minded marketing students to contribute their ideas. I know that at my university, there are several Masters degrees that encompass both marketing and some aspects of IT. Perhaps these students might be able to incorporate their work as part of a thesis.
There might, but I'd need proof that such a group ...
Steve · 2006-03-09T13:36:00
There might, but I'd need proof that such a group was likely to help rather than hinder before I sanctioned it. In the past the PSF has tried to encourage similar initiatives (though not with groups having specific marketing skills) and little has come of them.
So once bitten, twice shy, but I'm not completely opposed to the idea.
Additional benefits for your list:* Maximises prog...
David Goodger · 2006-03-09T14:57:00
Additional benefits for your list:
* Maximises programmer efficiency * Easy to read & maintain
My 'catch-phrase' for Python has been that "I'm at...
Anonymous · 2006-03-09T20:35:00
My 'catch-phrase' for Python has been that "I'm at least twice as productive using Python as I am with any other language."
I not only say that, but then show how my solutions are written in less time, and usually with significantly less code. More importantly, I show how I can go back to code written 6+ months ago and pick it right back up where I left off.
That's what really grabs management's attention. Not talk about the features of the language, but how money is being saved by using the appropriate tools.
Steve (& all other commenters), I'm not sure if yo...
Anonymous · 2006-03-13T19:22:00
Steve (& all other commenters), I'm not sure if you're already there, but we'd love to have you at the marketing-python mailing list!
I think we lack not so much an idea of what to say, but some shared resources to say it with; a customizable springboard talk, for instance, that we can use to promote Python in our own localities and professional circles. (Do you happen to have an intro talk you'd like to contribute to the cause?)
I'm sick of living in a community without a vibrant Python community! I'm sick of looking enviously at Chicago and Toronto and Dallas and Boston...
Very, very well said, and agreed on all points. Py...
Jesse · 2006-03-08T13:11:00
Very, very well said, and agreed on all points. Python could user marketing and evangelism - and attacking other languages, or sticking to pure technical merit (ie: my syntax is better than yours) generally doesn't convince those in managerial roles that the language is effective.Simple things like RAD development, and ROI have to be covered, success cases from high profile companies, example frameworks and applications for people to be able to leverage and showcase to those internally.
-jesse
(The "java is oo cobol" link is broken and mistitl...
Jonathan Ellis · 2006-03-08T15:40:00
(The "java is oo cobol" link is broken and mistitled.)Excellent post! I believe that a lot of noise is ...
André Roberge · 2006-03-08T15:52:00
Excellent post! I believe that a lot of noise is generated because, as the expression goes, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".Marketing, like many disciplines based on social sciences, is a 'low entry level' discipline; the language used is English. (Programming, engineering and Physics by contrast are 'high entry level' disciplines; they require fluency in an acquired language.) For that reason, any pythonista with an opinion (however uninformed) will believe that he or she knows how Python should be marketed, based on their experience with the language. Unfortunately, most often they (including myself) have very little relevant knowledge about marketing as a professional discipline.
Marketing to a large audience often means creating an artificial "need" for a product, based on something that non-experts find attractive. I think that the iPod is a good example of such a product.
I believe that your list of the most important marketing points is excellent. The challenge for the Python community is, I think, finding the right way to communicate these points to a "general" audience. (People with the required high-level expertise to make their own decisions will not be swayed by this marketing approach; they will choose Python after finding on their own about the relevant language features which you suggest should be left out.)
Might there be some merit in enlisting the efforts...
Anonymous · 2006-03-09T12:56:00
Might there be some merit in enlisting the efforts of those who study, practise or otherwise understand the concepts of marketing?Perhaps under the umbrella of an SIG, the PSF (forgive the acronyms.. all this talk of marketing has gone to my head) could attract technically minded marketing students to contribute their ideas. I know that at my university, there are several Masters degrees that encompass both marketing and some aspects of IT. Perhaps these students might be able to incorporate their work as part of a thesis.
There might, but I'd need proof that such a group ...
Steve · 2006-03-09T13:36:00
There might, but I'd need proof that such a group was likely to help rather than hinder before I sanctioned it. In the past the PSF has tried to encourage similar initiatives (though not with groups having specific marketing skills) and little has come of them.So once bitten, twice shy, but I'm not completely opposed to the idea.
Additional benefits for your list:* Maximises prog...
David Goodger · 2006-03-09T14:57:00
Additional benefits for your list:* Maximises programmer efficiency
* Easy to read & maintain
My 'catch-phrase' for Python has been that "I'm at...
Anonymous · 2006-03-09T20:35:00
My 'catch-phrase' for Python has been that "I'm at least twice as productive using Python as I am with any other language."I not only say that, but then show how my solutions are written in less time, and usually with significantly less code. More importantly, I show how I can go back to code written 6+ months ago and pick it right back up where I left off.
That's what really grabs management's attention. Not talk about the features of the language, but how money is being saved by using the appropriate tools.
Steve (& all other commenters), I'm not sure if yo...
Anonymous · 2006-03-13T19:22:00
Steve (& all other commenters), I'm not sure if you're already there, but we'd love to have you at the marketing-python mailing list!I think we lack not so much an idea of what to say, but some shared resources to say it with; a customizable springboard talk, for instance, that we can use to promote Python in our own localities and professional circles. (Do you happen to have an intro talk you'd like to contribute to the cause?)
I'm sick of living in a community without a vibrant Python community! I'm sick of looking enviously at Chicago and Toronto and Dallas and Boston...
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