Comments on Sell the Sizzle, Not the Sausage, page 1 of 2
· marketing, python
A great first cut! I hope that blurb, or a deriva...
Anonymous · 2009-02-17T17:43:00
A great first cut! I hope that blurb, or a derivation of it, makes its way onto the python.org home page.
I wonder much further it can be boiled down. Can you make it short enough to fit on a tee shirt?
Steve, while I grant that the new blurb you have c...
Brandon Rhodes · 2009-02-17T19:17:00
Steve, while I grant that the new blurb you have concocted might indeed improve the Python web site, I think that you go astray when you propose that the difference between the two blurbs is in whether we focus "on the wonderful feature set of our products" rather than the "needs of our customers."
Because, in fact, both blurbs address, quite precisely, the needs of Python customers! The difference between them is not that one is customer-centric and one is not; instead, the difference is that one treats the Python developer as the customer, and the other treats his boss (or client or vice president of IT) as the customer.
Since no one pays to download Python, we cannot simply look at the signatures on a thousand randomly-selected purchase orders and determine whether our customers are primarily programmers choosing the correct tools to easily provide solutions to others — in which case the claim that we are a "dynamic object-oriented programming language" is precisely what we need to be saying — or whether they are Bosses, worried about not choosing something without IBM or Adobe or Microsoft slapped on the cover, and wondering why on earth one would use a programming environment that does not come from the store in a shrink-wrapped box.
So the question that you need to be asking is not, "Should we become customer-centric"; but, rather, "Toward which customer should the front page of python.org be oriented?"
(Answer: I'd orient it toward the bosses, since they'll just read the front page. Then have a "technical features" page that says everything it says now for the developers.)
+1 on the edit
Michael Tobis · 2009-02-17T19:43:00
+1 on the edit
Brandon: There is something to what you say. Howev...
Steve · 2009-02-17T19:46:00
Brandon: There is something to what you say. However I can't bring myself to think of "object-oriented" as a benefit. The parallel I'd draw is with (say) a turbocharger on a car. That's the feature: the benefits are better acceleration and higher power output.
You did. however, correctly deduce that my real concern is to try and offer some relief to the many people who would like to adopt Python at work but can't because some fairly mindless policy stands in the way.
See Zed Shaw's The ACL Is Dead for some rather more radical solutions to that problem. Zed would probably say "Tell them you are using .NET and just write it in Python anyway".
-1 on the edit - one of the main reasons I'm happi...
Anonymous · 2009-02-18T11:23:00
-1 on the edit - one of the main reasons I'm happier going to free software websites is that they don't do things this way! Neutral descriptions are far better than publicity guff.
As a programmer, I would prefer the current wordin...
Senthil Kumaran · 2009-02-18T16:42:00
As a programmer, I would prefer the current wording Steve. The reason being, Python is still learned by Programmers. Python's customers _are_ programmers and the better programmers we get for the Python Language, more it is going to prosper. I would not forsake technicality for gaining some quick results. If you see, Python has been around from 1991 and is picking up very fast now, we should not do anything drastically different that would hinder with its style and culture.
BTW, Kudos on your Tutorial Presentation. Thats exceeding 40 registrations.
I very much agree with Brandon. My first thoughts...
Anonymous · 2009-02-19T03:51:00
I very much agree with Brandon. My first thoughts when I read promises of effect without details of implementation are, "Empty marketing. Lies. Move on."
If it wouldn't crowd the page too much, one approach would be to have the manager-friendly and programmer-friendly versions side-by-side. We can have your version, but make details right at hand - set us clearly apart the zillion from proprietary companies that hide details under many layers of glossy promises.
Well, this is all great feedback. Maybe we do need...
Steve · 2009-02-19T12:25:00
Well, this is all great feedback. Maybe we do need two parallel channels. I certainly don't want to put technical people off the language.
But there's still the larger question of how we exercise some persuasion at higher organizational levels. Maybe we need to be collaborating with other open source projects to do this.
Or perhaps a prominent "For Your Management" link on the home page?
I still think that we focus too much on features. Apache, for example, promotes itself as "secure, efficient and extensible", which are all obvious benefits. What do you think?
Obviously the front page needs a picture of a snaz...
Brandon Rhodes · 2009-02-19T13:57:00
Obviously the front page needs a picture of a snazzy manager in a suite next to a cool-looking developer in jeans — sort of like the Apple ads with the Mac and the PC but with neither of them looking like the "bad guy" — and the caption above the manager saying your new manager spiel, Steve, about how projects get done more nimbly and effectively now that they're built atop Python, giving his developers enough breathing space that he, the manager, really feels in control; and the cool jeans-clad developer letting us in on the secret: that Python is simple, flexible, dynamic, object-oriented, and, best of all, open source, leaving him in control.
Thus, if written well, the spiels will play off against each other a little bit, and make it sound like each side is letting you in on a secret about Python that the other doesn't know about or doesn't appreciate.
I'll selflessly volunteer to be the cool-looking developer guy. I'll bring one of my good Banana Republic shirts to PyCon just in case. :-)
Steve, I like the new edit. The old blurb leads w...
Ned Batchelder · 2009-02-22T17:39:00
Steve, I like the new edit. The old blurb leads with stuff that is only interesting to language lawyers. Even as a developer, "get more programming done faster" is the right thing to sell.
And BTW: I think you're missing a "not" in the second sentence: "... decisions are *not* always made ..."
A great first cut! I hope that blurb, or a deriva...
Anonymous · 2009-02-17T17:43:00
A great first cut! I hope that blurb, or a derivation of it, makes its way onto the python.org home page.I wonder much further it can be boiled down. Can you make it short enough to fit on a tee shirt?
Steve, while I grant that the new blurb you have c...
Brandon Rhodes · 2009-02-17T19:17:00
Steve, while I grant that the new blurb you have concocted might indeed improve the Python web site, I think that you go astray when you propose that the difference between the two blurbs is in whether we focus "on the wonderful feature set of our products" rather than the "needs of our customers."Because, in fact, both blurbs address, quite precisely, the needs of Python customers! The difference between them is not that one is customer-centric and one is not; instead, the difference is that one treats the Python developer as the customer, and the other treats his boss (or client or vice president of IT) as the customer.
Since no one pays to download Python, we cannot simply look at the signatures on a thousand randomly-selected purchase orders and determine whether our customers are primarily programmers choosing the correct tools to easily provide solutions to others — in which case the claim that we are a "dynamic object-oriented programming language" is precisely what we need to be saying — or whether they are Bosses, worried about not choosing something without IBM or Adobe or Microsoft slapped on the cover, and wondering why on earth one would use a programming environment that does not come from the store in a shrink-wrapped box.
So the question that you need to be asking is not, "Should we become customer-centric"; but, rather, "Toward which customer should the front page of python.org be oriented?"
(Answer: I'd orient it toward the bosses, since they'll just read the front page. Then have a "technical features" page that says everything it says now for the developers.)
+1 on the edit
Michael Tobis · 2009-02-17T19:43:00
+1 on the editBrandon: There is something to what you say. Howev...
Steve · 2009-02-17T19:46:00
Brandon: There is something to what you say. However I can't bring myself to think of "object-oriented" as a benefit. The parallel I'd draw is with (say) a turbocharger on a car. That's the feature: the benefits are better acceleration and higher power output.You did. however, correctly deduce that my real concern is to try and offer some relief to the many people who would like to adopt Python at work but can't because some fairly mindless policy stands in the way.
See Zed Shaw's The ACL Is Dead for some rather more radical solutions to that problem. Zed would probably say "Tell them you are using .NET and just write it in Python anyway".
-1 on the edit - one of the main reasons I'm happi...
Anonymous · 2009-02-18T11:23:00
-1 on the edit - one of the main reasons I'm happier going to free software websites is that they don't do things this way! Neutral descriptions are far better than publicity guff.As a programmer, I would prefer the current wordin...
Senthil Kumaran · 2009-02-18T16:42:00
As a programmer, I would prefer the current wording Steve. The reason being, Python is still learned by Programmers. Python's customers _are_ programmers and the better programmers we get for the Python Language, more it is going to prosper. I would not forsake technicality for gaining some quick results. If you see, Python has been around from 1991 and is picking up very fast now, we should not do anything drastically different that would hinder with its style and culture.BTW, Kudos on your Tutorial Presentation. Thats exceeding 40 registrations.
I very much agree with Brandon. My first thoughts...
Anonymous · 2009-02-19T03:51:00
I very much agree with Brandon. My first thoughts when I read promises of effect without details of implementation are, "Empty marketing. Lies. Move on."If it wouldn't crowd the page too much, one approach would be to have the manager-friendly and programmer-friendly versions side-by-side. We can have your version, but make details right at hand - set us clearly apart the zillion from proprietary companies that hide details under many layers of glossy promises.
Well, this is all great feedback. Maybe we do need...
Steve · 2009-02-19T12:25:00
Well, this is all great feedback. Maybe we do need two parallel channels. I certainly don't want to put technical people off the language.But there's still the larger question of how we exercise some persuasion at higher organizational levels. Maybe we need to be collaborating with other open source projects to do this.
Or perhaps a prominent "For Your Management" link on the home page?
I still think that we focus too much on features. Apache, for example, promotes itself as "secure, efficient and extensible", which are all obvious benefits. What do you think?
Obviously the front page needs a picture of a snaz...
Brandon Rhodes · 2009-02-19T13:57:00
Obviously the front page needs a picture of a snazzy manager in a suite next to a cool-looking developer in jeans — sort of like the Apple ads with the Mac and the PC but with neither of them looking like the "bad guy" — and the caption above the manager saying your new manager spiel, Steve, about how projects get done more nimbly and effectively now that they're built atop Python, giving his developers enough breathing space that he, the manager, really feels in control; and the cool jeans-clad developer letting us in on the secret: that Python is simple, flexible, dynamic, object-oriented, and, best of all, open source, leaving him in control.Thus, if written well, the spiels will play off against each other a little bit, and make it sound like each side is letting you in on a secret about Python that the other doesn't know about or doesn't appreciate.
I'll selflessly volunteer to be the cool-looking developer guy. I'll bring one of my good Banana Republic shirts to PyCon just in case. :-)
Steve, I like the new edit. The old blurb leads w...
Ned Batchelder · 2009-02-22T17:39:00
Steve, I like the new edit. The old blurb leads with stuff that is only interesting to language lawyers. Even as a developer, "get more programming done faster" is the right thing to sell.And BTW: I think you're missing a "not" in the second sentence: "... decisions are *not* always made ..."
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