Comments on Why Soldiers Deserve Proper Respect, page 1 of 2
· futility, honor, justice, sacrifice, service, soldiers, war, youth
Mercenaries who kill for money, "a trade"...
Anonymous · 2009-12-04T13:13:25.067000
Mercenaries who kill for money, "a trade" or career opportunities.
They don't defend the country but destroy others for purely economic motives.
They don't deserve to be honored at all. In many cases is quite the opposite.
That's exactly what I mean: you completely fai...
Steve · 2009-12-04T13:27:54.050000
That's exactly what I mean: you completely fail to distinguish between government warmongering and the individuals who are its tools. Nobody's hands are entirely clean in this world, but many of the troops have far more honorable motivations than you imply. I agree it might be better if everyone refused to serve, but not everyone has that luxury, or feels they do.
I suppose ultimately it supports the contention that the love of money is the root of all evil.
What about those who were conscripted to earlier wars?
Well said, Steve. Thank you!
jdm · 2009-12-04T13:49:36.731000
Well said, Steve. Thank you!
Amazement for doing your own bed unasked? I'm ...
Anonymous · 2009-12-04T15:41:12.837000
Amazement for doing your own bed unasked? I'm not very impressed...
I am really surprised you need to explain this to ...
Anonymous · 2009-12-04T16:27:15.447000
I am really surprised you need to explain this to anyone. I thought that conflating the soldiers themselves with the orders they are given was a fallacy that died out after Vietnam.
The orders they are given come from our very own political process. Anybody looking for someone to blame can blame every voting-age citizen, because that's where the decisions ultimately come from. (Yes, elections can be bought, but only because we're too lazy to ignore the advertisements and make up our own minds. Choosing to let money decide the races is a choice nonetheless.)
About the war in general, I disagree with you about Afghanistan (but not about Iraq)... but I really, really wish we would have a dedicated war tax for this and for every war. I feel unclean saying "I think this is worth other people losing their lives for, but I don't want it to cost me any cash."
I wasn't trying to impress, least of all an an...
Steve · 2009-12-04T16:42:11.830000
I wasn't trying to impress, least of all an anonymous commenter. That change was just one of many, symptomatic of a basic change in his outlook and a new self-reliance. The military gives some people a structure they need, and it lasts a lifetime.
> Hell, if bankers and politicians had to fight...
manuel moe g · 2009-12-04T17:03:19.440000
> Hell, if bankers and politicians had to fight wars in person this world would be a far more peaceful place.
It is more depressing than that. If warfare was _deficit-neutral_ through a property/savings/estate tax that fell only on the richest 5%, this world would be a far more peaceful place.
No appeal is needed to cowardice. Only an appeal to scrooge nature. Such is the craven state of really-existing patriotism.
I have to take the rare road of disagreeing with y...
Calvin Spealman · 2009-12-04T18:54:22.510000
I have to take the rare road of disagreeing with you, Steve.
It isn't that I don't respect the soldiers. Just the opposite, because I respect everyone, including the people I honestly believe are sending the soldiers into illegal, death-probable situations, with purely profit and religion driving their justification. Do I absolutely detest what they do? Of course! I still respect them as fellow human beings, interacting with the world as they best know how.
I am not going to thank my brother in law, still struggling to find his way after leaving the Marines. That doesn't mean I didn't just buy a couch from him I didn't like and didn't need, because I'm doing a nice thing. It doesn't mean I have a problem with him. I don't like why he was there, but I still support him as a human being. I should do so (we all should do so) for all fellow humans beings. For all fellow beings, even.
Was a terribly let down when my best friend, who I pleaded not to enlist in the first place, decided to re-enlist after his four years? Absolutely. His he still my best and closest friend? Absolutely. When I talk to him after he gets shipped back overseas, I won't refrain from letting him know he is there under false pretense and for absolutely no gain. I'll be sure he knows that he may well being doing harm to all of us by his very presence!
I'll still support him in his life, as my friend, interacting with the world as best his experiences have taught him to do. Now, in his case that meant joining and remaining in an organization I consider corrupt and contemptible. The thing is, I don't need to keep "respect for the soldier" despite that contempt for the soldier's orders. I don't need respect for the soldier, because I hold equal respect for all, as we all should.
So, do we need a conversation about how to treat soldiers, or how to treat people? Instead of expressing my distaste for the orders by hating the ordered, I'll express it by doing the very thing I hate the orders for in the first place: treating the world as a bunch of beings, doing their best in a confusing world.
I understand your point of view and agree with som...
Noufal · 2009-12-05T11:24:12.058000
I understand your point of view and agree with some parts of it but I think there is sometimes the issue of putting aside your own conscience when you're serving in the army which I consider a cardinal sin.
@Manuelg: That's certainly the case in the Wes...
Steve · 2009-12-05T13:00:41.440000
@Manuelg: That's certainly the case in the West, where the arms manufacturers and those who get rich by their activity have a lot to answer for. I'm not sure how it plays out in Africa, though, or the Middle-Eastern counties where war is endemic. Do the rich in Palestine profit from the war with Israel? (For all I know the answer may be "yes").
@Calvin: reading what you wrote I'm not so sure we disagree that radically. While I've never agreed with dulce et decorum est pro patria mori I think those who serve because they genuinely believe they are protecting their fellow citizens achieve a level of altruism I doubt I ever will.
@Noufal: Yes, joining the armed forces is a somewhat Faustian bargain, I agree. But motivations are complex, and it's difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
Mercenaries who kill for money, "a trade"...
Anonymous · 2009-12-04T13:13:25.067000
Mercenaries who kill for money, "a trade" or career opportunities.They don't defend the country but destroy others for purely economic motives.
They don't deserve to be honored at all. In many cases is quite the opposite.
That's exactly what I mean: you completely fai...
Steve · 2009-12-04T13:27:54.050000
That's exactly what I mean: you completely fail to distinguish between government warmongering and the individuals who are its tools. Nobody's hands are entirely clean in this world, but many of the troops have far more honorable motivations than you imply. I agree it might be better if everyone refused to serve, but not everyone has that luxury, or feels they do.I suppose ultimately it supports the contention that the love of money is the root of all evil.
What about those who were conscripted to earlier wars?
Well said, Steve. Thank you!
jdm · 2009-12-04T13:49:36.731000
Well said, Steve. Thank you!Amazement for doing your own bed unasked? I'm ...
Anonymous · 2009-12-04T15:41:12.837000
Amazement for doing your own bed unasked? I'm not very impressed...I am really surprised you need to explain this to ...
Anonymous · 2009-12-04T16:27:15.447000
I am really surprised you need to explain this to anyone. I thought that conflating the soldiers themselves with the orders they are given was a fallacy that died out after Vietnam.The orders they are given come from our very own political process. Anybody looking for someone to blame can blame every voting-age citizen, because that's where the decisions ultimately come from. (Yes, elections can be bought, but only because we're too lazy to ignore the advertisements and make up our own minds. Choosing to let money decide the races is a choice nonetheless.)
About the war in general, I disagree with you about Afghanistan (but not about Iraq)... but I really, really wish we would have a dedicated war tax for this and for every war. I feel unclean saying "I think this is worth other people losing their lives for, but I don't want it to cost me any cash."
I wasn't trying to impress, least of all an an...
Steve · 2009-12-04T16:42:11.830000
I wasn't trying to impress, least of all an anonymous commenter. That change was just one of many, symptomatic of a basic change in his outlook and a new self-reliance. The military gives some people a structure they need, and it lasts a lifetime.> Hell, if bankers and politicians had to fight...
manuel moe g · 2009-12-04T17:03:19.440000
> Hell, if bankers and politicians had to fight wars in person this world would be a far more peaceful place.It is more depressing than that. If warfare was _deficit-neutral_ through a property/savings/estate tax that fell only on the richest 5%, this world would be a far more peaceful place.
No appeal is needed to cowardice. Only an appeal to scrooge nature. Such is the craven state of really-existing patriotism.
I have to take the rare road of disagreeing with y...
Calvin Spealman · 2009-12-04T18:54:22.510000
I have to take the rare road of disagreeing with you, Steve.It isn't that I don't respect the soldiers. Just the opposite, because I respect everyone, including the people I honestly believe are sending the soldiers into illegal, death-probable situations, with purely profit and religion driving their justification. Do I absolutely detest what they do? Of course! I still respect them as fellow human beings, interacting with the world as they best know how.
I am not going to thank my brother in law, still struggling to find his way after leaving the Marines. That doesn't mean I didn't just buy a couch from him I didn't like and didn't need, because I'm doing a nice thing. It doesn't mean I have a problem with him. I don't like why he was there, but I still support him as a human being. I should do so (we all should do so) for all fellow humans beings. For all fellow beings, even.
Was a terribly let down when my best friend, who I pleaded not to enlist in the first place, decided to re-enlist after his four years? Absolutely. His he still my best and closest friend? Absolutely. When I talk to him after he gets shipped back overseas, I won't refrain from letting him know he is there under false pretense and for absolutely no gain. I'll be sure he knows that he may well being doing harm to all of us by his very presence!
I'll still support him in his life, as my friend, interacting with the world as best his experiences have taught him to do. Now, in his case that meant joining and remaining in an organization I consider corrupt and contemptible. The thing is, I don't need to keep "respect for the soldier" despite that contempt for the soldier's orders. I don't need respect for the soldier, because I hold equal respect for all, as we all should.
So, do we need a conversation about how to treat soldiers, or how to treat people? Instead of expressing my distaste for the orders by hating the ordered, I'll express it by doing the very thing I hate the orders for in the first place: treating the world as a bunch of beings, doing their best in a confusing world.
I understand your point of view and agree with som...
Noufal · 2009-12-05T11:24:12.058000
I understand your point of view and agree with some parts of it but I think there is sometimes the issue of putting aside your own conscience when you're serving in the army which I consider a cardinal sin.@Manuelg: That's certainly the case in the Wes...
Steve · 2009-12-05T13:00:41.440000
@Manuelg: That's certainly the case in the West, where the arms manufacturers and those who get rich by their activity have a lot to answer for. I'm not sure how it plays out in Africa, though, or the Middle-Eastern counties where war is endemic. Do the rich in Palestine profit from the war with Israel? (For all I know the answer may be "yes").@Calvin: reading what you wrote I'm not so sure we disagree that radically. While I've never agreed with dulce et decorum est pro patria mori I think those who serve because they genuinely believe they are protecting their fellow citizens achieve a level of altruism I doubt I ever will.
@Noufal: Yes, joining the armed forces is a somewhat Faustian bargain, I agree. But motivations are complex, and it's difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
Page 1 of 2 · Newer comments
Back to post