Not to the diminish the drama and misery of the pa...
Carl Trachte · 2012-12-15T17:10:26.244000
Not to the diminish the drama and misery of the parties involved, but I see this as pretty typical growing pains in a community. Tackling diversity issues head on is a major undertaking. There will be pushback and whatever fair or unfair arguments that are available will be brought forward.
This is probably a reflection on how I approach problems, but it is probably best to just keep pressing forward on the diversity thing. If a hypocrite or someone who shows favoritism is the worst thing you've been called, you're actually doing quite well.
As for the learning experience, it's just that, a learning experience. Yeah, it's too bad, but it's not the end of the world. Actually I'm glad you posted this because it gives me some awareness of how I should act at the conference. Thanks. Also, it, I hope, lets people know that we do recognize this as unacceptable and we're going to stop doing it. Even though it's tough to hear, the woman's testimony of being creeped out is also helpful. Being aware of what is creepy and what isn't is a good starting point. I hope I don't get slammed for saying this, but I don't think it's totally a matter of "you know what's right or wrong, just do the right thing." I don't want to say too much self-incriminating stuff, but if Steve is *that* guy, I've probably been *that other* guy on occasion.
When people twist the story and embellish it for their own means, it reflects more poorly on them than it does on you. Character assassination used to frame someone as a hypocrite is kind of ironic, really.
My 2 cents. CBT
Per the evolving code of conduct for Pycons, even ...
Kirby Urner · 2012-12-15T20:43:50.893000
Per the evolving code of conduct for Pycons, even some of the words in this blog post would be inappropriate on slides.
Given the Python community is encouraged to cite Monty Python and to weave in that groups comedy, there's an inherent tension between General Audience rated content, and a fully Pythonic curriculum. Monty Python is more TV-14 than G.
"One eyed [trouser] snake" is from the lyrics of a Monty Python song, so Steve was actually being quite appropriate for a Pythonista, alluding to Python's namesake's humor in his own.
Having a Code of Conduct and eschewing TV-14 and above rated material (NC-17, R, MA etc.) are two separate concepts.
One can have a conference wherein profanity, off color jokes, sexual content, is not prohibited, and yet there's a strict code of conduct nevertheless.
The fact that Pycons and PSF are insisting on Codes of Conduct does not really settle all these issues. Pycons themselves seem heading into safe G-rated territory, but that just leaves more room for the competition to specialize in complementary ways (with or without codes of conduct).
Again, having a Code of Conduct is not synonymous with insisting that all presented content be "General Audience" rated.
That may be true in the case of the Pycons, but it remains to be seen if the PSF is open to helping with conferences that are open to "adult content" yet still have an explicit code that sets limits on staff and participant behaviors. And even if the PSF is not open to help with such conferences, that won't keep them from happening, praise Allah.
Being new to the Python community and just having ...
hackygolucky · 2012-12-15T21:00:07.217000
Being new to the Python community and just having had the pleasure of meeting you in person for the first time last week at the Winter Coder's Social, I'd like to say that this is very much appreciated. PSF has set quite the precedent as willing to discuss/address these issues, and keeping them top-of-mind(regardless of it being painful) will continue to evolve the language and community. Why? Because it keeps the good people around. And this example will keep more coming.
I have said this recently, and I'll say it again--I think I'm being hornswoggled. Did I drink the kool-aid? I have been initiated into a community where every person I meet is just wonderful. They're friendly. They're helpful. They're wildly intelligent, and often opinionated. As long as we can keep this civil, we're allowed to disagree on things. However, having leaders who are willing to bear the brunt of ignorance calmly and apply these occurrences as teaching moments puts Python in a great place. Dare I say, maybe above the rest.
Thank you for writing this.
As one of the women a...
Michelle Rowley · 2012-12-15T23:25:50.984000
Thank you for writing this.
As one of the women at PyCon last year, I remember this schtick. I should start by saying that I was in no way offended by it. I know you well enough to know that you have the best of intentions in all things, especially those related to the Python Software Foundation, evidenced by the fact that this is all in relation to you collecting donations for the Foundation.
I think it's well known in the Python world know that you would never do anything purposefully to harm the community. You've worked hard to support the efforts of the PSF to foster gender diversity at PyCon and in the Python community. I don't believe you'd ever intend to undermine your own hard work (work that is, by the way, much appreciated).
I believe this post proves that, the occasional suggestive joke aside, you are indeed a gentleman. Even though no formal complaints were made against you at PyCon or afterward, I appreciate your willingness to take responsibility when realizing that things you said could have made some people uncomfortable. It shows that you care about making the community comfortable for everyone.
Thank you for being an example of what makes the Python community awesome.
I have stated that opinions about the Code of Cond...
Anonymous · 2012-12-17T17:30:26.377000
I have stated that opinions about the Code of Conduct should be discussed in a public forum. I’ve had, at their request, ex parte emails with Jesse Noller and Steve Holden over the subsequent reaction to my post on Hacker News. The substance of the objections to my post and my responses have been addressed in these emails. In his last email, Steve suggested that if I wanted to discuss it in a public forum, which I have always advocated, I should try his blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/. So this is being posted there and at my blog bobhancock.org.
My full response is too long for the comments, so please take a look at bobhancock.org.
To simplify things dor readers I have responded on...
Steve · 2012-12-17T18:53:12.711000
To simplify things dor readers I have responded on Bob's blog post. I will not repeat my comments here.
Years ago, I had a discussion with a colleague one...
Bradley M. Kuhn · 2012-12-18T17:15:10.005000
Years ago, I had a discussion with a colleague one about "have we crossed the line that certain jokes are just unacceptable, and should they be unacceptable?" and he made a really interesting point. I paraphrase it below:
People who rant about politically correctness being confining should watch some 1980s USAmerican TV and movies. There were stereotypes and jokes that were highly offensive, but at the time they were completely acceptable then, and wouldn't be now. We're better off as a culture for a certain amount of political correctness.
One example we discussed was the "Long Duk Dong" character in the 1984 film, Sixteen Candles. I thought of our conversation again a few weekends ago when that movie was on TV and I turned it on briefly: the portrayal is undoubtedly offensive and frankly just plain racist. Yet I remember distinctly (white) guys walking around my high school quoting lines from the portrayal fully oblivious to how uncomfortable it made the Asian-American students.
We're frankly better off that jokes that were once acceptable almost anywhere are now relegated only to a specific context. Comedians still make jokes that cross the line, but it's not ok anymore to merely quote them aloud around conferences. We're probably better off for that.
Meanwhile, I think what we're seeing here is that burgeoning system of "complaint and apology" worked. Steve did something he regrets, and someone was able to tell him about it and in response he sincerely apologized. It's easy to screw up and offend someone with a lame attempt at humor that ended up being offensive. The important thing is genuine regret, remorse, and apology -- all of which I think Steve is expressing here.
Steve, thanks for doing so.
Steve, you are one of the the most fair, honest an...
Anonymous · 2012-12-21T05:48:45.147000
Steve, you are one of the the most fair, honest and self-aware people I know.
You have always been the first to defend diversity where and when it's being challenged throughout Python communities around the world. Like may women who take a very public and vocal stand on these issues, you have become a target. Like so many women online, things you say will be scruitinized, and you're suddenly and ridiculously villified.
No one can convince me that you ever had or will have malicious intent. No one will ever convice me that you do not have the best interests of this community at the forefront of your mind. This is how we bacame friends, and you are one of the many reasons why I am forever grateful for the existence of this community. We're here for you, as you were here for us.
We remember when we called on you for help, in times of severe cases of sexism and discrimination, and you publicly defended and stood by us. Feel free to call on us when you need our support.
Gloria
I appreciate the apology, but I definitely would n...
Justin · 2013-01-07T19:05:44.140000
I appreciate the apology, but I definitely would not want to have anything to do with any gathering of tech people these days. The knives are out.
As Steve himself offhandedly notes:
Note again: the already inaccurate quotation has been through the mangler once more.
Precisely.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I can't ...
Steve · 2013-01-07T19:18:44.264000
You are entitled to your opinion, but I can't see this as a case of "least said, soonest mended." Since I am already deeply involved in the tech community I don't have your choice, so my choice is to give the subject air and see if we can't do something to rectify it.
Increasing all kinds of diversity will, in my opinion, make the tech community a rather healthier environment than it currently is.
Not to the diminish the drama and misery of the pa...
Carl Trachte · 2012-12-15T17:10:26.244000
Not to the diminish the drama and misery of the parties involved, but I see this as pretty typical growing pains in a community. Tackling diversity issues head on is a major undertaking. There will be pushback and whatever fair or unfair arguments that are available will be brought forward.This is probably a reflection on how I approach problems, but it is probably best to just keep pressing forward on the diversity thing. If a hypocrite or someone who shows favoritism is the worst thing you've been called, you're actually doing quite well.
As for the learning experience, it's just that, a learning experience. Yeah, it's too bad, but it's not the end of the world. Actually I'm glad you posted this because it gives me some awareness of how I should act at the conference. Thanks. Also, it, I hope, lets people know that we do recognize this as unacceptable and we're going to stop doing it. Even though it's tough to hear, the woman's testimony of being creeped out is also helpful. Being aware of what is creepy and what isn't is a good starting point. I hope I don't get slammed for saying this, but I don't think it's totally a matter of "you know what's right or wrong, just do the right thing." I don't want to say too much self-incriminating stuff, but if Steve is *that* guy, I've probably been *that other* guy on occasion.
When people twist the story and embellish it for their own means, it reflects more poorly on them than it does on you. Character assassination used to frame someone as a hypocrite is kind of ironic, really.
My 2 cents. CBT
Per the evolving code of conduct for Pycons, even ...
Kirby Urner · 2012-12-15T20:43:50.893000
Per the evolving code of conduct for Pycons, even some of the words in this blog post would be inappropriate on slides.Given the Python community is encouraged to cite Monty Python and to weave in that groups comedy, there's an inherent tension between General Audience rated content, and
a fully Pythonic curriculum. Monty Python is more TV-14 than G.
"One eyed [trouser] snake" is from the lyrics of a Monty Python song, so Steve was actually being quite appropriate for a Pythonista, alluding to Python's namesake's humor in his own.
Having a Code of Conduct and eschewing TV-14 and above rated material (NC-17, R, MA etc.) are two separate concepts.
One can have a conference wherein profanity, off color jokes, sexual content, is not prohibited, and yet there's a strict code of conduct nevertheless.
The fact that Pycons and PSF are insisting on Codes of Conduct does not really settle all these issues. Pycons themselves seem heading into safe G-rated territory, but that just leaves more room for the competition to specialize in complementary ways (with or without codes of conduct).
Again, having a Code of Conduct is not synonymous with insisting that all presented content be "General Audience" rated.
That may be true in the case of the Pycons, but it remains to be seen if the PSF is open to helping with conferences that are open to "adult content" yet still have an explicit code that sets limits on staff and participant behaviors. And even if the PSF is not open to help with such conferences, that won't keep them from happening, praise Allah.
Being new to the Python community and just having ...
hackygolucky · 2012-12-15T21:00:07.217000
Being new to the Python community and just having had the pleasure of meeting you in person for the first time last week at the Winter Coder's Social, I'd like to say that this is very much appreciated. PSF has set quite the precedent as willing to discuss/address these issues, and keeping them top-of-mind(regardless of it being painful) will continue to evolve the language and community. Why? Because it keeps the good people around. And this example will keep more coming.I have said this recently, and I'll say it again--I think I'm being hornswoggled. Did I drink the kool-aid? I have been initiated into a community where every person I meet is just wonderful. They're friendly. They're helpful. They're wildly intelligent, and often opinionated. As long as we can keep this civil, we're allowed to disagree on things. However, having leaders who are willing to bear the brunt of ignorance calmly and apply these occurrences as teaching moments puts Python in a great place. Dare I say, maybe above the rest.
Thank you for writing this. As one of the women a...
Michelle Rowley · 2012-12-15T23:25:50.984000
Thank you for writing this.As one of the women at PyCon last year, I remember this schtick. I should start by saying that I was in no way offended by it. I know you well enough to know that you have the best of intentions in all things, especially those related to the Python Software Foundation, evidenced by the fact that this is all in relation to you collecting donations for the Foundation.
I think it's well known in the Python world know that you would never do anything purposefully to harm the community. You've worked hard to support the efforts of the PSF to foster gender diversity at PyCon and in the Python community. I don't believe you'd ever intend to undermine your own hard work (work that is, by the way, much appreciated).
I believe this post proves that, the occasional suggestive joke aside, you are indeed a gentleman. Even though no formal complaints were made against you at PyCon or afterward, I appreciate your willingness to take responsibility when realizing that things you said could have made some people uncomfortable. It shows that you care about making the community comfortable for everyone.
Thank you for being an example of what makes the Python community awesome.
I have stated that opinions about the Code of Cond...
Anonymous · 2012-12-17T17:30:26.377000
I have stated that opinions about the Code of Conduct should be discussed in a public forum. I’ve had, at their request, ex parte emails with Jesse Noller and Steve Holden over the subsequent reaction to my post on Hacker News. The substance of the objections to my post and my responses have been addressed in these emails. In his last email, Steve suggested that if I wanted to discuss it in a public forum, which I have always advocated, I should try his blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/. So this is being posted there and at my blog bobhancock.org.My full response is too long for the comments, so please take a look at bobhancock.org.
To simplify things dor readers I have responded on...
Steve · 2012-12-17T18:53:12.711000
To simplify things dor readers I have responded on Bob's blog post. I will not repeat my comments here.Years ago, I had a discussion with a colleague one...
Bradley M. Kuhn · 2012-12-18T17:15:10.005000
Years ago, I had a discussion with a colleague one about "have we crossed the line that certain jokes are just unacceptable, and should they be unacceptable?" and he made a really interesting point. I paraphrase it below:People who rant about politically correctness being confining should watch some 1980s USAmerican TV and movies. There were stereotypes and jokes that were highly offensive, but at the time they were completely acceptable then, and wouldn't be now. We're better off as a culture for a certain amount of political correctness.
One example we discussed was the "Long Duk Dong" character in the 1984 film, Sixteen Candles. I thought of our conversation again a few weekends ago when that movie was on TV and I turned it on briefly: the portrayal is undoubtedly offensive and frankly just plain racist. Yet I remember distinctly (white) guys walking around my high school quoting lines from the portrayal fully oblivious to how uncomfortable it made the Asian-American students.
We're frankly better off that jokes that were once acceptable almost anywhere are now relegated only to a specific context. Comedians still make jokes that cross the line, but it's not ok anymore to merely quote them aloud around conferences. We're probably better off for that.
Meanwhile, I think what we're seeing here is that burgeoning system of "complaint and apology" worked. Steve did something he regrets, and someone was able to tell him about it and in response he sincerely apologized. It's easy to screw up and offend someone with a lame attempt at humor that ended up being offensive. The important thing is genuine regret, remorse, and apology -- all of which I think Steve is expressing here.
Steve, thanks for doing so.
Steve, you are one of the the most fair, honest an...
Anonymous · 2012-12-21T05:48:45.147000
Steve, you are one of the the most fair, honest and self-aware people I know.You have always been the first to defend diversity where and when it's being challenged throughout Python communities around the world. Like may women who take a very public and vocal stand on these issues, you have become a target. Like so many women online, things you say will be scruitinized, and you're suddenly and ridiculously villified.
No one can convince me that you ever had or will have malicious intent. No one will ever convice me that you do not have the best interests of this community at the forefront of your mind. This is how we bacame friends, and you are one of the many reasons why I am forever grateful for the existence of this community. We're here for you, as you were here for us.
We remember when we called on you for help, in times of severe cases of sexism and discrimination, and you publicly defended and stood by us. Feel free to call on us when you need our support.
Gloria
I appreciate the apology, but I definitely would n...
Justin · 2013-01-07T19:05:44.140000
I appreciate the apology, but I definitely would not want to have anything to do with any gathering of tech people these days. The knives are out.As Steve himself offhandedly notes:
Note again: the already inaccurate quotation has been through the mangler once more.
Precisely.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I can't ...
Steve · 2013-01-07T19:18:44.264000
You are entitled to your opinion, but I can't see this as a case of "least said, soonest mended." Since I am already deeply involved in the tech community I don't have your choice, so my choice is to give the subject air and see if we can't do something to rectify it.Increasing all kinds of diversity will, in my opinion, make the tech community a rather healthier environment than it currently is.
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