Comments on How Much Profit is Enough?, page 1 of 6
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
David DeCesare · 2003-06-27T07:45:00
The fact that such idiots can be elected to govern a great nation is my primary evidence that capitalism and democracy together will ultimately lead to the self-destruction of the human race.
What do you suggest? Socialism or Communism? Those philosophies merely transform greed for money to greed for power and control. Besides, just because someone in political power says something stupid doesn't signify the end of the world. Have there been any laws passed that allows a company to destroy your computer? No.
That's why America is a republic and not a pure democracy nor a monarchy. A republic helps ensure that niether the will of one person nor the whims of the masses throws a civilization into chaos. In my opinion, it's the best form of government that keeps human nature in check.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-27T08:23:00
Thanks for your response. I would suggest socialism (not a proper name, so no capitalisation required), but I'm well aware that such a suggestion may bring me floods of hate mail. I'm also prepared to admit that you are correct in your assertion that socialism is also vulnerable to greed, which is why my final paragraph identified greed as the problem.
Being a socialist by inclination, I remain concerned about the fate of those with less choice than I have myself. Although nobody has (yet) passed a law that allows a company to destroy my computer, the US has a Digital Millenium Copyright Act whose provisions are both far-reaching and draconian. There is no indication that the RIAA is inclined to back off its enforcement attempts, and now the software industry is climbing on the bandwagon.
I'd like to see it made illegal to use any publishing technology that disallows what used to be described as "fair use" (such as copying a short section for the purpose of comment or personal research), but such use isn't being taken into account in current proposals. When people talk about "digital rights management" they aren't talking about the rights of the user.
Your opinion notwithstanding, I'm not convinced there's much to choose between the USA today and monarchic or "pure democratic" states. I don't see human nature being kept all that tightly in check, but it would be fatuous of me to suggest any quick fix. At least some politicians are trying to address the problem by doing more than just posting in a blog.
It's our greed that will drown us in our own shit, and I guess that one six-billionth of the shit will have come from me.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
James Britt · 2003-06-27T09:09:00
Ultimately it's all about greed. It's good to make a profit, and it's better to make a huge profit, so open source software is unamerican.
Huh? How does one follow from the other? Is it not possible that it is good to make a (possibly huge) profit, AND volunteer to help others? Does not the USA have a strong history of charity, both at home and abroad? Have not countless communities shown the willingness to help their neighbors? Ever hear of barn-raising? It's quite American (though not exclusively so).
While a select group of large corporations get the major press, most companies do not exist by screwing their customers, employees, or stockholders. Extrapolating from a few fringe cases is hardly compelling.
Unfortunately the rise of corporate power and the ubiquity of advertising allows the suppliers to manipulate demand, in effect corporate .
Do you *really* believe this? Are you really convinced that most people are such sheep that they can simply be told what to buy, irrespective of any actual need? Or is it that you just disapprove of how people decide to spend their money?
Are Microsoft just producing what the users want to run? Hardly: nobody in their right mind would specify a software environment as buggy as [pick your version of] Microsoft's Office or Windows.
Well, actually, plenty of people in their right mind picked Microsoft. Consider the alternatives: Some variant of Unix that required a CS degree to install, or Apple, who held a hardware monopoly and used it to keep prices too high. Wintel PCs were cheap and easy to use. They gave the consumer choice. You can pick your own hard drive, sound card, monitor. Despite whatever bugs, they *still* offered better overall value to the consumer. Or, perhaps, this is a case were the spending decisions of the less-enlightened just prove the evil dominance of large, greed-driven corporations.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
David DeCesare · 2003-06-27T09:21:00
I would suggest socialism (not a proper name, so no capitalisation required)
I guess it's ironic that socialism doesn't require capitalization.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ian Rae · 2003-06-27T11:53:00
> of a small Web development shop (28 people), I never > expected to be affected by the trends toward outsourcing > large, software development jobs to overseas firms. ...
I see this as a good thing. Anyone in the world, no matter what country they live in, should have access to good-paying jobs. In Europe now you can live in one country and work in another. With software development, distributed work teams is easy, and therefore pretty much inevitable.
> Unfortunately the rise of corporate > power and the ubiquity of advertising allows the suppliers > to manipulate demand, in effect creating their own > markets.
The evidence for this is not really there. If it were true then the top tech companies in 1980, Honeywell for instance, would still be top. But most of the 1980 companies don't even exist anymore because they couldn't generate demand for their products.
Perhaps a bigger factor in software is its high substitution cost. Switching from Microsoft Office to Corel WordPerfect Office, for example, would have massive costs in training and data migration. The result is that there really is no substitute (no competitor) for Office, or Windows, or most other software. The result is the high prices that we see.
When a technology stabilizes, like BIOS software or printer drivers, then its substitution cost falls.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-27T13:02:00
I guess it's ironic that socialism doesn't require capitalization
No more than that capitalism requires socialization :-)
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ernie Varitimos · 2003-06-27T14:17:00
I'm sorry but this is just a big f**king whine. We are living in the most successful and vibrant culture ever to grace this earth. Our form of government, our freedom to choose our own destinies, along with our capatilistic ideals are what have made us great. The drive to succeed in the market place against insurmountable odds is what fuels us and motivates us. The opportunities in the USA are boundless, we shouldn't be deterred by market conditions and competition.
Sure, I agree that outsourcing is eating away at jobs here at home, and open source has commoditized certain industries. So What? Should we withdraw into our personal carapaces, whine and dance the victimization waltz, then beg our government to save us by extending its teet so we can be feel pacified and safe? Or do we take on the challenge and rize about it all, confront these situations, look at them as opportunities, use our ingenuity, go out and create new technologies, new markets, new customers, and once again raise the bar and show the world how America, Capatilist America, is the leader, not because of greed, not because of big corporations, but because of individual's self determination and freedom (f**k socialism), our abilitiy to express that freedom and the unbridled opportunity it presents is what we are all about and why we will continue to lead. And while we're at it we will produce a profit, and our dreams will be realized!
There is only one alternative to the free society you seem to hate so much. It is called slavery, aka socialism/communism/totalitarianism - the system where the government owns everything and everybody and dicates every aspect of your life by force.
It's what the USSR had, and also explains why present-day western Europe is such a cultural and economic backwater relative to North America.
What those two primitive societies have in common with you, is regarding profit and freedom as a dirty words. So let me turn the question around : How much state control is enough?
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-28T11:32:00
... and show the world how America, Capatilist[sic] America, is the leader ...
If you think there has to be a leader then I suppose you'd want it to be your own country. If your representation of America's culture is accurate then I guess that world peace and harmony are a long way down the list of priorities.
The opportunities in the USA may be boundless if you're white and middle class. If the culture is so vibrant, what's it doing for the twenty million inhabitants who live below the breadline? Don't tell me, they're poor because they choose to be.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-28T11:43:00
There is only one alternative to the free society you seem to hate so much.
Just because you don't have the imagination to conceive of alternatives, don't believe that alternatives don't exist. Presumably as a member of a free society my freedom includes the right to criticize? Your characterization of socialism is simply a regurgitation of right-wing propaganda. While the USSR was no ideal society it was at least originally an attempt to find an alternative to the degrading conditions imposed by the Czars. I'm certainly not an apologist for Soviet communism.
The freedom you (wrongly) suggest I regard as a dirty word also includes the freedom to choose whether or not to buy the products of third-world factories whose laborers have to work upwards of seventy hours a week for wages as low as 13c per hour. If those conditions don't concern you, presumably their freedom is less important than yours.
If you regard state control as the only alternative to capitalism then your paucity of imagination beggars belief.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
David DeCesare · 2003-06-27T07:45:00
The fact that such idiots can be elected to govern a great nation is my primary evidence that capitalism and democracy together will ultimately lead to the self-destruction of the human race.What do you suggest? Socialism or Communism? Those philosophies merely transform greed for money to greed for power and control. Besides, just because someone in political power says something stupid doesn't signify the end of the world. Have there been any laws passed that allows a company to destroy your computer? No.
That's why America is a republic and not a pure democracy nor a monarchy. A republic helps ensure that niether the will of one person nor the whims of the masses throws a civilization into chaos. In my opinion, it's the best form of government that keeps human nature in check.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-27T08:23:00
Thanks for your response. I would suggest socialism (not a proper name, so no capitalisation required), but I'm well aware that such a suggestion may bring me floods of hate mail. I'm also prepared to admit that you are correct in your assertion that socialism is also vulnerable to greed, which is why my final paragraph identified greed as the problem.Being a socialist by inclination, I remain concerned about the fate of those with less choice than I have myself. Although nobody has (yet) passed a law that allows a company to destroy my computer, the US has a Digital Millenium Copyright Act whose provisions are both far-reaching and draconian. There is no indication that the RIAA is inclined to back off its enforcement attempts, and now the software industry is climbing on the bandwagon.
I'd like to see it made illegal to use any publishing technology that disallows what used to be described as "fair use" (such as copying a short section for the purpose of comment or personal research), but such use isn't being taken into account in current proposals. When people talk about "digital rights management" they aren't talking about the rights of the user.
Your opinion notwithstanding, I'm not convinced there's much to choose between the USA today and monarchic or "pure democratic" states. I don't see human nature being kept all that tightly in check, but it would be fatuous of me to suggest any quick fix. At least some politicians are trying to address the problem by doing more than just posting in a blog.
It's our greed that will drown us in our own shit, and I guess that one six-billionth of the shit will have come from me.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
James Britt · 2003-06-27T09:09:00
Ultimately it's all about greed. It's good to make a profit, and it's better to make a huge profit, so open source software is unamerican.Huh? How does one follow from the other? Is it not possible that it is good to make a (possibly huge) profit, AND volunteer to help others? Does not the USA have a strong history of charity, both at home and abroad? Have not countless communities shown the willingness to help their neighbors? Ever hear of barn-raising? It's quite American (though not exclusively so).
While a select group of large corporations get the major press, most companies do not exist by screwing their customers, employees, or stockholders. Extrapolating from a few fringe cases is hardly compelling.
Unfortunately the rise of corporate power and the ubiquity of advertising allows the suppliers to manipulate demand, in effect corporate .
Do you *really* believe this? Are you really convinced that most people are such sheep that they can simply be told what to buy, irrespective of any actual need? Or is it that you just disapprove of how people decide to spend their money?
Are Microsoft just producing what the users want to run? Hardly: nobody in their right mind would specify a software environment as buggy as [pick your version of] Microsoft's Office or Windows.
Well, actually, plenty of people in their right mind picked Microsoft. Consider the alternatives: Some variant of Unix that required a CS degree to install, or Apple, who held a hardware monopoly and used it to keep prices too high. Wintel PCs were cheap and easy to use. They gave the consumer choice. You can pick your own hard drive, sound card, monitor. Despite whatever bugs, they *still* offered better overall value to the consumer. Or, perhaps, this is a case were the spending decisions of the less-enlightened just prove the evil dominance of large, greed-driven corporations.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
David DeCesare · 2003-06-27T09:21:00
I would suggest socialism (not a proper name, so no capitalisation required)I guess it's ironic that socialism doesn't require capitalization.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ian Rae · 2003-06-27T11:53:00
> of a small Web development shop (28 people), I never> expected to be affected by the trends toward outsourcing
> large, software development jobs to overseas firms. ...
I see this as a good thing. Anyone in the world, no matter what country they live in, should have access to good-paying jobs. In Europe now you can live in one country and work in another. With software development, distributed work teams is easy, and therefore pretty much inevitable.
> Unfortunately the rise of corporate
> power and the ubiquity of advertising allows the suppliers
> to manipulate demand, in effect creating their own
> markets.
The evidence for this is not really there. If it were true then the top tech companies in 1980, Honeywell for instance, would still be top. But most of the 1980 companies don't even exist anymore because they couldn't generate demand for their products.
Perhaps a bigger factor in software is its high substitution cost. Switching from Microsoft Office to Corel WordPerfect Office, for example, would have massive costs in training and data migration. The result is that there really is no substitute (no competitor) for Office, or Windows, or most other software. The result is the high prices that we see.
When a technology stabilizes, like BIOS software or printer drivers, then its substitution cost falls.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-27T13:02:00
I guess it's ironic that socialism doesn't require capitalizationNo more than that capitalism requires socialization :-)
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ernie Varitimos · 2003-06-27T14:17:00
I'm sorry but this is just a big f**king whine. We are living in the most successful and vibrant culture ever to grace this earth. Our form of government, our freedom to choose our own destinies, along with our capatilistic ideals are what have made us great. The drive to succeed in the market place against insurmountable odds is what fuels us and motivates us. The opportunities in the USA are boundless, we shouldn't be deterred by market conditions and competition.Sure, I agree that outsourcing is eating away at jobs here at home, and open source has commoditized certain industries. So What? Should we withdraw into our personal carapaces, whine and dance the victimization waltz, then beg our government to save us by extending its teet so we can be feel pacified and safe? Or do we take on the challenge and rize about it all, confront these situations, look at them as opportunities, use our ingenuity, go out and create new technologies, new markets, new customers, and once again raise the bar and show the world how America, Capatilist America, is the leader, not because of greed, not because of big corporations, but because of individual's self determination and freedom (f**k socialism), our abilitiy to express that freedom and the unbridled opportunity it presents is what we are all about and why we will continue to lead. And while we're at it we will produce a profit, and our dreams will be realized!
-ernie
http://javachief.org
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Peter Kidson · 2003-06-28T00:07:00
There is only one alternative to the free society you seem to hate so much. It is called slavery, aka socialism/communism/totalitarianism - the system where the government owns everything and everybody and dicates every aspect of your life by force.It's what the USSR had, and also explains why present-day western Europe is such a cultural and economic backwater relative to North America.
What those two primitive societies have in common with you, is regarding profit and freedom as a dirty words. So let me turn the question around :
How much state control is enough?
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-28T11:32:00
... and show the world how America, Capatilist[sic] America, is the leader ...If you think there has to be a leader then I suppose you'd want it to be your own country. If your representation of America's culture is accurate then I guess that world peace and harmony are a long way down the list of priorities.
The opportunities in the USA may be boundless if you're white and middle class. If the culture is so vibrant, what's it doing for the twenty million inhabitants who live below the breadline? Don't tell me, they're poor because they choose to be.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-28T11:43:00
There is only one alternative to the free society you seem to hate so much.Just because you don't have the imagination to conceive of alternatives, don't believe that alternatives don't exist. Presumably as a member of a free society my freedom includes the right to criticize? Your characterization of socialism is simply a regurgitation of right-wing propaganda. While the USSR was no ideal society it was at least originally an attempt to find an alternative to the degrading conditions imposed by the Czars. I'm certainly not an apologist for Soviet communism.
The freedom you (wrongly) suggest I regard as a dirty word also includes the freedom to choose whether or not to buy the products of third-world factories whose laborers have to work upwards of seventy hours a week for wages as low as 13c per hour. If those conditions don't concern you, presumably their freedom is less important than yours.
If you regard state control as the only alternative to capitalism then your paucity of imagination beggars belief.
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