Comments on How Much Profit is Enough?, page 2 of 6
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-28T11:53:00
> > Unfortunately the rise of corporate power and the > ubiquity of advertising allows the suppliers to manipulate > demand, in effect corporate . > > Do you *really* believe this? Are you really convinced > that most people are such sheep that they can simply be > told what to buy, irrespective of any actual need? Or is > it that you just disapprove of how people decide to spend > their money? > I'm not sure I'd say "most", but the less education you have the more likely you are to believe you need the products advertised. So yes, with that qualification, I really believe it. Otherwise, how can we explain the killings that occur for a pair of Nike or Adidas training shoes? Are you honestly suggesting the kids that do this have a real need for fashion footwear?
You seem to feel that I'm being holier than thou. Of course people are free to spend their money on whatever they want, but you underestimate the social pressure they are under, and completely overlook the fact that the advertising spend of wealthy corporations generates the pressures.
You are correct in saying that most companies trade fair, but we run the risk of the big companies becoming monopolies and forcing their smaller suppliers into confirming to the patterns I described.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ernie Varitimos · 2003-06-28T13:43:00
Steve replies; The opportunities in the USA may be boundless if you're white and middle class. If the culture is so vibrant, what's it doing for the twenty million inhabitants who live below the bread-line? Don't tell me, they're poor because they choose to be.
A vast number of the people who have made fortunes in this country started out "below the breadline" without any assistance from the government. Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible odds. The difference is that the opportunity to pursue their success was and is their inalienable right, however it's still left to the individual to create their lot. There will always be disadvantaged and for the indigent, those that can not care for themselves, we should as a society provide the care they need, every other able body should be on their own.
I'm not going to dignify your attempt to bait this dialog with race.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Peter Kidson · 2003-06-29T00:31:00
> > There is only one alternative to the free society you > > seem to hate so much ... How much state control is enough for you?
> Just because you don't have the imagination to conceive of > alternatives, don't believe that alternatives don't exist.
OK then, explain this alleged alternative to freedom that isn't totalitarian state control.
> Presumably as a member of a free society my freedom > includes the right to criticize?
Indeed. In a free society the state, if it exists at all, would not have the right to censor you. This is an essential ingredient of capitalism.
> Your characterization of socialism is simply a > regurgitation of right-wing propaganda.
In that case the right wing must have got something right. Socialism ~is~ totalitarian state control - more and more decisions taken by the state, fewer and fewer by the people themselves.
> While the USSR was no ideal society it was at > least originally an attempt to find an alternative to the > degrading conditions imposed by the Czars. I'm certainly > not an apologist for Soviet communism.
I'm relieved to hear it. But you're mistaken if you think there was ever any goodwill in the bolsheviks. Being thorough socialists they were totalitarian thugs right form the start, which is why they sabotaged Russia's then emerging reformist movement.
> The freedom you (wrongly) suggest I regard as a dirty word > also includes the freedom to choose whether or not to buy > the products of third-world factories whose laborers have > to work upwards of seventy hours a week for wages as low > as 13c per hour.
Yes. But you might want to think twice before demoting them to 0c per hour by not buying their work.
> If those conditions don't concern you, > presumably their freedom is less important than yours.
Nothing you have thus far said mentions anything about them not being free.
> If you regard state control as the only alternative to > capitalism then your paucity of imagination beggars > belief.
Go on then, enlighten us.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Peter Kidson · 2003-06-29T01:39:00
> the rise of corporate power and the ubiquity of > advertising allows the suppliers to manipulate > demand
Advertising is a form of persuation, a fundamental part of free speech. Would you prefer the state to ban this?
>.. the less education you have the more likely you > are to believe you need the products advertised.
Less educated people are more easily persuadable? Perhaps. So what do you recommend - a state ban on anyone trying to use persuasion on anyone below a certain level of education?
>.. how can we explain the killings that occur for a pair > of Nike or Adidas training shoes?
Lack of proper upbringing. Lack of sufficient deterents.
> Are you honestly suggesting the kids that do this > have a real need for fashion footwear?
All you "need" is a cave to live in and some animal skins to wear. Everything beyond that that is wants. And Yes, kids, like everyone else, do want stuff. Would you like the state to somehow stop people wanting things?
> you underestimate the social pressure they > are under, and completely overlook the fact that the > advertising spend of wealthy corporations generates the > pressures.
So you want the state to ban or limit advertising?
> You are correct in saying that most companies trade > fair, but we run the risk of the big companies becoming > monopolies and forcing their smaller suppliers into > confirming to the patterns I described.
The only harmful monopolies are those created by the state (itsef a monopoly). Monopolies like Microsoft that arise without state interference are not a problem, since if they don't deliver value for money they thereby invite in new competitors.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Daniel Yokomizo · 2003-07-01T11:58:00
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Nice post. It's always nice to see people posting any kind of criticism to greedy corporativism and being flamed by being "communist" or "unamerican". I don't agree with your political inclinations, but I agree with the general feeling that current state of capitalism harms individuals and small companies.
Also it's funny to see people saying that being poor isn't excuse and everyone has equal oportunities. I guess nobody in this forum, heck nobody with an account in artima.com, has ever been struck by real poverty (not like "I was unable to buy a playstation 2 and had to move back to my parents house because of dot com crash."). Yesterday I was reading about a "small" investor who took 3 million, created a startup and 18 months later sold it by 300 million. And he's a small investor. Almost nobody poor will ever have, or can get a loan of, this amount. It's not a option.
Don't even get me started on "free" market, because it doesn't work when corporations get together and start lobbying for laws (RIAA and DMCA anyone?) or trying to fix prices. Today's market it's big enough to make the five largest corporations share without competition, and everyone (owning shares in them) win. People said that Skylarov's case was an exception, not the rule, but today we have more and suits of intelectual "property" and copyright "theft".
I'll end with some remarks. First, I'm brazilian, so all this red scare is meaningless and funny. Second I know what the real capitalism looks like, and it's not pretty. Mostly it's about corporations pissing in their "human resources", and selling their shit as pieces of gold to their customers, disrespecting laws whenever they can't get caught. Third, I'm not a communist or socialist, so don't flame me for being something that I'm not. I'll leave figuring out my political inclinations as an exercise to the reader. And last, but not the least, keep posting mr. Holden, because what the people who "get sick" of criticism, different ideas or even plain stupid opinions (we're all entitled to have our opinions, even if they're contradictory, but I'm not talking about you here) is just a mindless dance to oblivion. Paraphrasing Voltaire, I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but I'll fight to death for your right to have them.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-07-01T17:35:00
> And last, but not the least, keep > posting mr. Holden, because what the people who "get sick" > of criticism, different ideas or even plain stupid > opinions (we're all entitled to have our opinions, even if > they're contradictory, but I'm not talking about you here) > is just a mindless dance to oblivion. Paraphrasing > Voltaire, I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but > I'll fight to death for your right to have them.
Well, it's finally nice to have a dissenting opinion that isn't expressed with vitriol. Thanks for the encouragement!
I agree that it's easy to blame the poor for their poverty, and that equailty of opportunity will always be a myth no matter what societal structures evolve. Mostly what we need is tolerance and understanding, but in my experience this is more likely to come from the disadvantaged than the privileged.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-07-01T17:45:00
I'm glad to see an acknowledgement that some people need assistance through no fault of their own.
Nothing I say is an attempt to nullify that fact that the USA does indeed offer far more opportunity to its inhabitants than many other countries, and that you are correct in pointing out that many have risen from below the breadline without assistance. I don't think, either, that you'll find anything I said was promoting government assistance (people equate socialism and state control far too closely).
The original post was an attempt to elucidate my feelings about how human nature tends to ensure that those who rise to the top will tend to exploit those who haven't, and that capitalist economics (which effectively reward the possession of wealth beyond a critical mass with more wealth) tend to reinforce this darker side of human nature.
I'm not going to dignify your attempt to bait this dialog with race.
That's fine by me. Presumably the reason that six percent of the US population contributes over 50% of its prison inmates is just a statistical accident. Clearly it can't be that the six percent are in any way disadvantaged, or can it?
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Matt Gerrans · 2003-07-01T23:10:00
> Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible odds.
Hmm... I would imagine it is impossible to rise against "impossible odds." Otherwise the odds were not impossible, now were they?
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ernie Varitimos · 2003-07-02T05:44:00
>> Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible odds.
Matt Gerrans wrote: Hmm... I would imagine it is impossible to rise against "impossible odds." Otherwise the odds were not impossible, now were they?
Permit me editorial license to revise my statement...
"Some arose from dire circumstances against seemingly impossible odds."
-ernie javachief.org
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Daniel Yokomizo · 2003-07-02T06:30:00
> > Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible > odds. > > Hmm... I would imagine it is impossible to rise > against "impossible odds." Otherwise the odds were not > impossible, now were they?
Isn't it just an improvement over "The Heart of Gold" engine? ;)
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-06-28T11:53:00
>> Unfortunately the rise of corporate power and the
> ubiquity of advertising allows the suppliers to manipulate
> demand, in effect corporate .
>
> Do you *really* believe this? Are you really convinced
> that most people are such sheep that they can simply be
> told what to buy, irrespective of any actual need? Or is
> it that you just disapprove of how people decide to spend
> their money?
>
I'm not sure I'd say "most", but the less education you have the more likely you are to believe you need the products advertised. So yes, with that qualification, I really believe it. Otherwise, how can we explain the killings that occur for a pair of Nike or Adidas training shoes? Are you honestly suggesting the kids that do this have a real need for fashion footwear?
You seem to feel that I'm being holier than thou. Of course people are free to spend their money on whatever they want, but you underestimate the social pressure they are under, and completely overlook the fact that the advertising spend of wealthy corporations generates the pressures.
You are correct in saying that most companies trade fair, but we run the risk of the big companies becoming monopolies and forcing their smaller suppliers into confirming to the patterns I described.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ernie Varitimos · 2003-06-28T13:43:00
Steve replies;The opportunities in the USA may be boundless if you're white and middle class. If the culture is so vibrant, what's it doing for the twenty million inhabitants who live below the bread-line? Don't tell me, they're poor because they choose to be.
A vast number of the people who have made fortunes in this country started out "below the breadline" without any assistance from the government. Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible odds. The difference is that the opportunity to pursue their success was and is their inalienable right, however it's still left to the individual to create their lot. There will always be disadvantaged and for the indigent, those that can not care for themselves, we should as a society provide the care they need, every other able body should be on their own.
I'm not going to dignify your attempt to bait this dialog with race.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Peter Kidson · 2003-06-29T00:31:00
> > There is only one alternative to the free society you> > seem to hate so much ... How much state control is enough for you?
> Just because you don't have the imagination to conceive of
> alternatives, don't believe that alternatives don't exist.
OK then, explain this alleged alternative to freedom that isn't totalitarian state control.
> Presumably as a member of a free society my freedom
> includes the right to criticize?
Indeed. In a free society the state, if it exists at all, would not have the right to censor you. This is an essential ingredient of capitalism.
> Your characterization of socialism is simply a
> regurgitation of right-wing propaganda.
In that case the right wing must have got something right. Socialism ~is~ totalitarian state control - more and more decisions taken by the state, fewer and fewer by the people themselves.
> While the USSR was no ideal society it was at
> least originally an attempt to find an alternative to the
> degrading conditions imposed by the Czars. I'm certainly
> not an apologist for Soviet communism.
I'm relieved to hear it. But you're mistaken if you think there was ever any goodwill in the bolsheviks. Being thorough socialists they were totalitarian thugs right form the start, which is why they sabotaged Russia's then emerging reformist movement.
> The freedom you (wrongly) suggest I regard as a dirty word
> also includes the freedom to choose whether or not to buy
> the products of third-world factories whose laborers have
> to work upwards of seventy hours a week for wages as low
> as 13c per hour.
Yes. But you might want to think twice before demoting them to 0c per hour by not buying their work.
> If those conditions don't concern you,
> presumably their freedom is less important than yours.
Nothing you have thus far said mentions anything about them not being free.
> If you regard state control as the only alternative to
> capitalism then your paucity of imagination beggars
> belief.
Go on then, enlighten us.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Peter Kidson · 2003-06-29T01:39:00
> the rise of corporate power and the ubiquity of> advertising allows the suppliers to manipulate
> demand
Advertising is a form of persuation, a fundamental part of free speech. Would you prefer the state to ban this?
>.. the less education you have the more likely you
> are to believe you need the products advertised.
Less educated people are more easily persuadable? Perhaps. So what do you recommend - a state ban on anyone trying to use persuasion on anyone below a certain level of education?
>.. how can we explain the killings that occur for a pair
> of Nike or Adidas training shoes?
Lack of proper upbringing. Lack of sufficient deterents.
> Are you honestly suggesting the kids that do this
> have a real need for fashion footwear?
All you "need" is a cave to live in and some animal skins to wear. Everything beyond that that is wants. And Yes, kids, like everyone else, do want stuff. Would you like the state to somehow stop people wanting things?
> you underestimate the social pressure they
> are under, and completely overlook the fact that the
> advertising spend of wealthy corporations generates the
> pressures.
So you want the state to ban or limit advertising?
> You are correct in saying that most companies trade
> fair, but we run the risk of the big companies becoming
> monopolies and forcing their smaller suppliers into
> confirming to the patterns I described.
The only harmful monopolies are those created by the state (itsef a monopoly). Monopolies like Microsoft that arise without state interference are not a problem, since if they don't deliver value for money they thereby invite in new competitors.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Daniel Yokomizo · 2003-07-01T11:58:00
Also it's funny to see people saying that being poor isn't excuse and everyone has equal oportunities. I guess nobody in this forum, heck nobody with an account in artima.com, has ever been struck by real poverty (not like "I was unable to buy a playstation 2 and had to move back to my parents house because of dot com crash."). Yesterday I was reading about a "small" investor who took 3 million, created a startup and 18 months later sold it by 300 million. And he's a small investor. Almost nobody poor will ever have, or can get a loan of, this amount. It's not a option.
Don't even get me started on "free" market, because it doesn't work when corporations get together and start lobbying for laws (RIAA and DMCA anyone?) or trying to fix prices. Today's market it's big enough to make the five largest corporations share without competition, and everyone (owning shares in them) win. People said that Skylarov's case was an exception, not the rule, but today we have more and suits of intelectual "property" and copyright "theft".
I'll end with some remarks. First, I'm brazilian, so all this red scare is meaningless and funny. Second I know what the real capitalism looks like, and it's not pretty. Mostly it's about corporations pissing in their "human resources", and selling their shit as pieces of gold to their customers, disrespecting laws whenever they can't get caught. Third, I'm not a communist or socialist, so don't flame me for being something that I'm not. I'll leave figuring out my political inclinations as an exercise to the reader. And last, but not the least, keep posting mr. Holden, because what the people who "get sick" of criticism, different ideas or even plain stupid opinions (we're all entitled to have our opinions, even if they're contradictory, but I'm not talking about you here) is just a mindless dance to oblivion. Paraphrasing Voltaire, I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but I'll fight to death for your right to have them.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-07-01T17:35:00
> And last, but not the least, keep> posting mr. Holden, because what the people who "get sick"
> of criticism, different ideas or even plain stupid
> opinions (we're all entitled to have our opinions, even if
> they're contradictory, but I'm not talking about you here)
> is just a mindless dance to oblivion. Paraphrasing
> Voltaire, I don't have to agree with your beliefs, but
> I'll fight to death for your right to have them.
Well, it's finally nice to have a dissenting opinion that isn't expressed with vitriol. Thanks for the encouragement!
I agree that it's easy to blame the poor for their poverty, and that equailty of opportunity will always be a myth no matter what societal structures evolve. Mostly what we need is tolerance and understanding, but in my experience this is more likely to come from the disadvantaged than the privileged.
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Steve Holden · 2003-07-01T17:45:00
I'm glad to see an acknowledgement that some people need assistance through no fault of their own.Nothing I say is an attempt to nullify that fact that the USA does indeed offer far more opportunity to its inhabitants than many other countries, and that you are correct in pointing out that many have risen from below the breadline without assistance. I don't think, either, that you'll find anything I said was promoting government assistance (people equate socialism and state control far too closely).
The original post was an attempt to elucidate my feelings about how human nature tends to ensure that those who rise to the top will tend to exploit those who haven't, and that capitalist economics (which effectively reward the possession of wealth beyond a critical mass with more wealth) tend to reinforce this darker side of human nature.
I'm not going to dignify your attempt to bait this dialog with race.
That's fine by me. Presumably the reason that six percent of the US population contributes over 50% of its prison inmates is just a statistical accident. Clearly it can't be that the six percent are in any way disadvantaged, or can it?
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Matt Gerrans · 2003-07-01T23:10:00
> Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible odds.Hmm... I would imagine it is impossible to rise against "impossible odds." Otherwise the odds were not impossible, now were they?
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Ernie Varitimos · 2003-07-02T05:44:00
>> Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible odds.Matt Gerrans wrote:
Hmm... I would imagine it is impossible to rise against "impossible odds." Otherwise the odds were not impossible, now were they?
Permit me editorial license to revise my statement...
"Some arose from dire circumstances against seemingly impossible odds."
-ernie
javachief.org
Re: How Much Profit is Enough?
Daniel Yokomizo · 2003-07-02T06:30:00
> > Some arose from dire circumstances against impossible> odds.
>
> Hmm... I would imagine it is impossible to rise
> against "impossible odds." Otherwise the odds were not
> impossible, now were they?
Isn't it just an improvement over "The Heart of Gold" engine? ;)
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