Comments on Comments or Not? Public or Private? Relevant or Irrelevant?, page 1 of 3
· activism, community, enthusiasm, open source, python, support
"If this piece isn't enough to get a dece...
Carl Trachte · 2009-11-30T04:51:47.201000
"If this piece isn't enough to get a decent discussion going then I suppose I should just resign as PSF chairman and look elsewhere for a community that gives a damn."
Whooooaaa! Steve. Please don't.
FWIW, I did vote and while doing so discovered that a few of my favorite packages (Polygon among them) had been ported to Python 3.x.
I'm not high powered enough a programmer to have any kind of opinion on this. My only thought on voting yes for comments was that it might (unintentional irony) generate some worthwhile discussion on the respective packages along with the inevitable spam.
Sorry it's been such a headache. 2009 has been a bit of a bear for the weary active Python community member.
Hang in there.
For the record, the URL you gave (http://bugs.pyth...
Antoine · 2009-11-30T13:37:54.382000
For the record, the URL you gave (http://bugs.python.org/setuptools/) seems to be the setuptools issue tracker. The Python issue tracker itself is at http://bugs.python.org/. There is some customization so I don't know if your experience would have been the same.
As for the discussion, while I agree it would be a good thing to have one I don't have a lot to say myself. PyPI is a critical piece of infrastructure but I don't know enough about how people use it to give any useful advice. Perhaps other people are in the same situation as me, which would explain why there hasn't been much of a discussion.
I agree with the general idea of bringing more people to contribute to Python (either through code or other forms of contribution). Contributing to a programming language (especially a major, elegant one) should be quite attractive for many people and I sometimes wonder why we don't have more volunteers. Ideally there should be so many candidates that we'd have to refuse most of them :-)
I don't think change will happen within the cu...
Jesse · 2009-11-30T14:35:51.657000
I don't think change will happen within the current code base, or structure. I think alternatives must be made, competition must be had and only then will we end up with a great, flexible and user friendly system.
Some people have already started working on something "else". There's plenty of PyPi clones out there to back that "else".
I agree with you vehemently on all accounts.
then I suppose I should just resign as PSF chairma...
Anonymous · 2009-11-30T17:36:50.712000
then I suppose I should just resign as PSF chairman
(panicked) WE'LL SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT JUST DON'T TALK THAT WAY.
As for assitance with the bug process, I wonder if help@python.org would be willing to add that to its mission? Of course, help@python.org has an ongoing problem that the people who would most benefit from it don't know it exists. But, for bug report purposes, a sizable "For help:" message at the head of the issue tracker would help.
As for help@python.org's general publicity problem, maybe a mention of help@python.org should be worked into the Python interactive help... or the Python interpreter should include a "hopeless flailing detection" routine that brings up help@python.org...
Hey, wait, there's something I don't under...
Titus Brown · 2009-11-30T17:40:50.756000
Hey, wait, there's something I don't understand...
The standard open source ethos is, "if you don't like something, fix it" -- not "if you don't like something, complain about it." For example, I refuse to bother Martin with my wacky ideas about (for example) including an advogato-based trust metric in PyPI because I simply don't have time to do it myself. (Note, a trust metric could be a solution to the commenting problem, IMO.)
So I think you're swimming against the stream here. Everybody can (and did, AFAICR) have an opinion on the diversity statement, and there were relatively few ways to discern what were "good" opinions and what weren't. But the community generally doesn't take so kindly to people expressing opinions without effort on software issues - and rightly so. Talk is cheap; work (support, programming, etc.) is hard.
So I don't think we need more people saying out loud that we need to do something -- I think we need more people *doing something*, and perhaps a better path to get people involved.
@Jesse, more alternatives to PyPI are going to fra...
Titus Brown · 2009-11-30T17:40:50.757000
@Jesse, more alternatives to PyPI are going to fragment the community just like easy_install. Not necessarily pro or con, but something to think about.
Python actually has way better infrastructure than...
Anonymous · 2009-11-30T19:15:06.008000
Python actually has way better infrastructure than most open source projects... for instance git doesn't even *have* a bug tracker.
That said, you are right to criticize. Many people in the open source community seem to be allergic to criticism of anything related to open source, but this is not rational. For problems to be solved they must be recognized...
Developers always make the ultimate call about what needs to be fixed, but if they are receptive to complaints and engaged with the non-developer community, they will be able to make that call better and in a way that will bring in more users.
Yes, please, don't resign!!
@Catherine, I lik...
Titus Brown · 2009-11-30T20:30:19.838000
Yes, please, don't resign!!
@Catherine, I like the idea:
"I see this is the third time you've typed F*** YOU at the command prompt. Would you like to be connected to the Python help line?"
@titus I don't buy the fragmentation argument ...
Jesse · 2009-11-30T20:33:03.054000
@titus I don't buy the fragmentation argument right now. The reason I don't is simple - we have a monoculture right now. We have zero choices - I'll happily point you to the setuptools debacle as evidence as to why this is a bad thing. Without competition, or a reason to improve, or even community driven alternatives, there's no reason to buck the status quo.
About polls and surveys: there has definitely been...
Paul Boddie · 2009-12-01T00:29:51.612000
About polls and surveys: there has definitely been a tradition of "framing" polls, especially around Python packaging, so that the results are shaped to favour particular outcomes. This may not be deliberate, but the original "what do you use for packaging?" poll mostly neglected the far-from-marginal use-case that system packaging happens to address. I need distutils to apply its (or Python's) knowledge of extension modules and package layouts, not to replicate all sorts of other things in a suboptimal fashion. Sadly, my impression is that opinions such as my own are now being filtered out - it's like .deb and .rpm files don't exist and we're not supposed to talk about them.
(Another case of "framing" a debate happens around the Python language and implementations. People would rather talk about language evolution in terms of Ruby, C#, Haskell, Erlang and Google's new language than look at Python's closest relatives. Again, those Python-like languages just don't exist.)
I'm not saying that the recent Package Index poll was inappropriately "framed", but sometimes it might be better to just ask people and get qualitative responses, rather than adding up some preferences and trying to guess why people are upset. I only update my software's entries on the Package Index out of habit, just to let people know that my code sees attention periodically, and I'm unlikely to use it as a serious distribution or feedback mechanism in the foreseeable future, but it's useful as a catalogue (or index!) of works. Where's my voting option in that poll?
About volunteering: I know how Martin probably feels about writing code and being told that it isn't a good thing because I've seen this behaviour before myself. The Python community seems to have a higher density of people who will gladly criticise volunteer efforts but won't do anything themselves apart from push some agenda or other. My best community-related decision of 2009 was to volunteer for a bunch of people who seem grateful for the stuff I've done, whereas in the Python scene I can only imagine the same stuff being met with "Why don't you junk all that rubbish and just use DjylonGears like us?"
My opinion here may seem paranoid or maybe petty, but doesn't it explain why it's so hard to get things done under the python.org banner? That people decide that everything at python.org has to be gold-plated and mandatory round-the-table discussions are required to get consensus and to dampen down the chorus of ridicule about what someone may have suggested?
Steve, don't take the status quo personally: at least you're not pretending that everything is flawless. Even the cloud of my own cynicism doesn't obscure some potential solutions to some of these crises. At least you're not telling us that "Steve knows best" and leaving it at that.
"If this piece isn't enough to get a dece...
Carl Trachte · 2009-11-30T04:51:47.201000
"If this piece isn't enough to get a decent discussion going then I suppose I should just resign as PSF chairman and look elsewhere for a community that gives a damn."Whooooaaa! Steve. Please don't.
FWIW, I did vote and while doing so discovered that a few of my favorite packages (Polygon among them) had been ported to Python 3.x.
I'm not high powered enough a programmer to have any kind of opinion on this. My only thought on voting yes for comments was that it might (unintentional irony) generate some worthwhile discussion on the respective packages along with the inevitable spam.
Sorry it's been such a headache. 2009 has been a bit of a bear for the weary active Python community member.
Hang in there.
For the record, the URL you gave (http://bugs.pyth...
Antoine · 2009-11-30T13:37:54.382000
For the record, the URL you gave (http://bugs.python.org/setuptools/) seems to be the setuptools issue tracker. The Python issue tracker itself is at http://bugs.python.org/. There is some customization so I don't know if your experience would have been the same.As for the discussion, while I agree it would be a good thing to have one I don't have a lot to say myself. PyPI is a critical piece of infrastructure but I don't know enough about how people use it to give any useful advice. Perhaps other people are in the same situation as me, which would explain why there hasn't been much of a discussion.
I agree with the general idea of bringing more people to contribute to Python (either through code or other forms of contribution). Contributing to a programming language (especially a major, elegant one) should be quite attractive for many people and I sometimes wonder why we don't have more volunteers. Ideally there should be so many candidates that we'd have to refuse most of them :-)
I don't think change will happen within the cu...
Jesse · 2009-11-30T14:35:51.657000
I don't think change will happen within the current code base, or structure. I think alternatives must be made, competition must be had and only then will we end up with a great, flexible and user friendly system.Some people have already started working on something "else". There's plenty of PyPi clones out there to back that "else".
I agree with you vehemently on all accounts.
then I suppose I should just resign as PSF chairma...
Anonymous · 2009-11-30T17:36:50.712000
then I suppose I should just resign as PSF chairman(panicked) WE'LL SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT JUST DON'T TALK THAT WAY.
As for assitance with the bug process, I wonder if help@python.org would be willing to add that to its mission? Of course, help@python.org has an ongoing problem that the people who would most benefit from it don't know it exists. But, for bug report purposes, a sizable "For help:" message at the head of the issue tracker would help.
As for help@python.org's general publicity problem, maybe a mention of help@python.org should be worked into the Python interactive help... or the Python interpreter should include a "hopeless flailing detection" routine that brings up help@python.org...
Hey, wait, there's something I don't under...
Titus Brown · 2009-11-30T17:40:50.756000
Hey, wait, there's something I don't understand...The standard open source ethos is, "if you don't like something, fix it" -- not "if you don't like something, complain about it." For example, I refuse to bother Martin with my wacky ideas about (for example) including an advogato-based trust metric in PyPI because I simply don't have time to do it myself. (Note, a trust metric could be a solution to the commenting problem, IMO.)
So I think you're swimming against the stream here. Everybody can (and did, AFAICR) have an opinion on the diversity statement, and there were relatively few ways to discern what were "good" opinions and what weren't. But the community generally doesn't take so kindly to people expressing opinions without effort on software issues - and rightly so. Talk is cheap; work (support, programming, etc.) is hard.
So I don't think we need more people saying out loud that we need to do something -- I think we need more people *doing something*, and perhaps a better path to get people involved.
@Jesse, more alternatives to PyPI are going to fra...
Titus Brown · 2009-11-30T17:40:50.757000
@Jesse, more alternatives to PyPI are going to fragment the community just like easy_install. Not necessarily pro or con, but something to think about.Python actually has way better infrastructure than...
Anonymous · 2009-11-30T19:15:06.008000
Python actually has way better infrastructure than most open source projects... for instance git doesn't even *have* a bug tracker.That said, you are right to criticize. Many people in the open source community seem to be allergic to criticism of anything related to open source, but this is not rational. For problems to be solved they must be recognized...
Developers always make the ultimate call about what needs to be fixed, but if they are receptive to complaints and engaged with the non-developer community, they will be able to make that call better and in a way that will bring in more users.
Yes, please, don't resign!! @Catherine, I lik...
Titus Brown · 2009-11-30T20:30:19.838000
Yes, please, don't resign!!@Catherine, I like the idea:
"I see this is the third time you've typed F*** YOU at the command prompt. Would you like to be connected to the Python help line?"
@titus I don't buy the fragmentation argument ...
Jesse · 2009-11-30T20:33:03.054000
@titus I don't buy the fragmentation argument right now. The reason I don't is simple - we have a monoculture right now. We have zero choices - I'll happily point you to the setuptools debacle as evidence as to why this is a bad thing. Without competition, or a reason to improve, or even community driven alternatives, there's no reason to buck the status quo.About polls and surveys: there has definitely been...
Paul Boddie · 2009-12-01T00:29:51.612000
About polls and surveys: there has definitely been a tradition of "framing" polls, especially around Python packaging, so that the results are shaped to favour particular outcomes. This may not be deliberate, but the original "what do you use for packaging?" poll mostly neglected the far-from-marginal use-case that system packaging happens to address. I need distutils to apply its (or Python's) knowledge of extension modules and package layouts, not to replicate all sorts of other things in a suboptimal fashion. Sadly, my impression is that opinions such as my own are now being filtered out - it's like .deb and .rpm files don't exist and we're not supposed to talk about them.(Another case of "framing" a debate happens around the Python language and implementations. People would rather talk about language evolution in terms of Ruby, C#, Haskell, Erlang and Google's new language than look at Python's closest relatives. Again, those Python-like languages just don't exist.)
I'm not saying that the recent Package Index poll was inappropriately "framed", but sometimes it might be better to just ask people and get qualitative responses, rather than adding up some preferences and trying to guess why people are upset. I only update my software's entries on the Package Index out of habit, just to let people know that my code sees attention periodically, and I'm unlikely to use it as a serious distribution or feedback mechanism in the foreseeable future, but it's useful as a catalogue (or index!) of works. Where's my voting option in that poll?
About volunteering: I know how Martin probably feels about writing code and being told that it isn't a good thing because I've seen this behaviour before myself. The Python community seems to have a higher density of people who will gladly criticise volunteer efforts but won't do anything themselves apart from push some agenda or other. My best community-related decision of 2009 was to volunteer for a bunch of people who seem grateful for the stuff I've done, whereas in the Python scene I can only imagine the same stuff being met with "Why don't you junk all that rubbish and just use DjylonGears like us?"
My opinion here may seem paranoid or maybe petty, but doesn't it explain why it's so hard to get things done under the python.org banner? That people decide that everything at python.org has to be gold-plated and mandatory round-the-table discussions are required to get consensus and to dampen down the chorus of ridicule about what someone may have suggested?
Steve, don't take the status quo personally: at least you're not pretending that everything is flawless. Even the cloud of my own cynicism doesn't obscure some potential solutions to some of these crises. At least you're not telling us that "Steve knows best" and leaving it at that.
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