Comments on Comments or Not? Public or Private? Relevant or Irrelevant?, page 2 of 3
· activism, community, enthusiasm, open source, python, support
@Carl: You don't need to be a high-powered pro...
Steve · 2009-12-01T01:52:17.373000
@Carl: You don't need to be a high-powered programmer to have an opinion. I suppose my major point was that we should be listening more carefully to the broader user community.
@Antoine: It looks as though the issue is that Firefox assumes that the password is the same for both trackers. I recently saw a similar problem report about inability to create an account on the Python tracker, though. And why don't the sites make it clear in their headings what they are tracking issues for? That's poor UI design.
I believe we have to ask ourselves why we aren't snowed under with volunteer developers. It's a serious concern for the future.
@Jesse: This isn't just about PyPi, but I do regard the PyPi situation as symptomatic of a broader malaise. It would be a shame to leave a trail of half-finished solutions along the wayside on our path to some nebulous ideal.
@Catherine: If the help@python.org team would be prepared to take it on that would be great, but the real problem is the one you identify - the channels are hidden from the majority of users. It could certainly use some more publicity.
@Titus: this isn't a programming problem, it's a cultural problem, so I am trying to fix it. It's a bad mistake to assume that the solution to every problem is more technology - I could spend weeks rewriting PyPi and come up with something that's worse than the current version.
I agree whole-heartedly about the better path to get involved - and I share your concern about fragmenting the development efforts. With a larger developer pool this might be less of a concern, though.
@Brendan: Thanks for the support. I too think that criticism and recognition of the need to improve is a positive thing. I also agree that the Python team has indeed put a terrific infrastructure together, but this isn't just about technology.
@Jesse: The problems seem to stem more from dependence on a single developer than on a single code base. Competition is good when there's no shortage of resources, but where developers are concerned that isn't the position right now.
@Paul: Your opinion seems neither paranoid or petty. I'm not sure who "the people" making these decisions about python.org are, but I do know that more people should be involved. There seems to be very little enthusiasm for innovation among the present maintainers - this could be because they are at full stretch already, though I don't see the results in the web site if that is the case.
You may be a cynic, but you have great Python credentials. I don't claim to know best, and need help from a broad cross-section of the Python community to try and improve things.
@steve - frankly, it's both. You and I both kn...
Jesse · 2009-12-01T02:08:25.407000
@steve - frankly, it's both. You and I both know it's difficult to get changes into the main site, and sub-sites such as PyPi are no exception. It's part social, and part technical.
When I say "build a competitor" - I mean both socially, and technically. I would rather have 10 failed starts spawn 1 good one, then to sit around trying to get consensus on what changes are the best, trying not to offend anyone, etc.
Having 30 volunteers offer to fix something, or change something fundamental doesn't solve the fact that the people on the other side may not be listening, or can simply say "no".
@Jesse: Well we certainly agree on the goal of imp...
Steve · 2009-12-01T02:25:34.355000
@Jesse: Well we certainly agree on the goal of improving Python's web presence. The thing that worries me is the perception that there are sides. We should all be working for Python's benefit here, in the knowledge that greater popularity for Python represents more opportunity for us. I don't expect people to be totally altruistic.
I agree that the consensus-building approach isn't working as well as I'd like. Maybe we need a bit more autocracy for a while - then at least responsibility for problems would be more readily identifiable!
@Steve, my solution is always more technology, don...
Titus Brown · 2009-12-01T02:53:02.348000
@Steve, my solution is always more technology, dontcha know?
But seriously, what I don't understand is this: what is holding people back from contributing? There's a lot of goodwill in the Python community among the non-contributors, and I anecdotally hear about these legions who want to contribute. I see opportunities for personal contribution all the time, and I don't -- but that's because I don't have the time to do anything. Do I/we need to publicize these opportunities? What's holding them all back?
I really don't think the problem is a lack of things to fix, or a lack of direction -- i.e. complaints aren't going to help, much. We need more people actually doing something, anything. And we need the organization to take advantage of those people, when and if they show up.
I feel like I'm rambling.
I appreciate posts like this Steve, so keep them u...
Empty · 2009-12-01T03:25:58.507000
I appreciate posts like this Steve, so keep them up.
The perception is that there are not volunteers. From where I sit there are plenty of people wanting to get their hands dirty, but the "old boy's club" is making them feel very unwelcome. The communication seems to be, "Help us as long as you filter everything through us." Part of volunteering is also being able to have some sort of participation in the decision process. That doesn't seem to be allowed. So you might want to start there.
No one from the PyPi community has ever said, "Jump in and help us make it better." Instead it's more like, "Send us code and we'll decide if we want to let it in or not." That will not get you far.
Instead of doing surveys around comments and such, just fix the f'n search capability. You know basic stuff. Show you're really interested in making it useful.
@Titus: I am sure the problem isn't a lack of ...
Steve · 2009-12-01T04:14:46.428000
@Titus: I am sure the problem isn't a lack of things to fix. I am perplexed by the common remarks (see Empty's comments immediately after yours) that contributors are made to feel unwelcome.
I have spent some effort in the last year publicizing various opportunities, with mixed results. We could certainly use more developers, more writers, more testers, more webmasters ... the list goes on and on. But are people aware of these needs? Do they realize that they are suitable candidates?
You hit the nail on the head: we aren't properly organized to make new contributors feel welcome, and we don't offer them the support they need to reach productivity. I'd like to work out how to change that. Quite apart from anything else it could help our efforts to increase diversity.
@Empty: I think that is an important contribution. Am I a part of the "old boys' club"? Is this a real phenomenon, or are people waiting to be asked in the expectation that they will be slapped down if they just roll their sleeves up and start getting their hands dirty?
I'm not really sure that there is an identifiable "PyPi community", so there may not be much of a decision process either, though it sounds as though you have been rebuffed in the past. As far as I know the PyPi code is stored in a Subversion repository. I can easily look into what's required to get access to that repository if you'd like.
Maybe the obstacles are mostly imaginary. If not, once we have identified them we will be a least a part of the way towards removing them.
First, Steve, please don't quit. I appreciate ...
Daniel Lindsley · 2009-12-01T07:29:21.396000
First, Steve, please don't quit. I appreciate everything you (and the other PSF board members) do.
To be honest, as a small, insignificant member of the community, I'd have no idea where to even begin helping out in the greater Python world. A lot of comments here make it sound like it's obvious. It's not. In five years of heavy Python use, Catherine's comment above is the first I've ever heard of "help@python.org" and I'd still have to go Google/Bing/Yahoo it just to know what it's for.
Beyond that, my perception from the trenches (if you will) is that there are indeed "sides" in the Python community. I've been privy to a couple of them, so I refuse to be told they don't exist. I consider myself a Python programmer, but the stigmata I've been given in the past is that I'm just a "Django guy" and was summarily dismissed as a result.
There are a couple things that jump out at me from reading through the comments. One: the "high-up" members of the community are tired and overworked, dedicating what they can to the language they enjoy using. Two: there's a massive Python user-base that aren't involved in day-to-day improvements. Three: everyone seems to agree there are things we need to improve on, even if we can't 100% agree with what they are. If it were up to me, I would say the PSF (or whoever it should be) should spend some time (hopefully paid) focusing on how to get more people involved.
As far as improving X (where X is PyPi/the bug tracker/any other web-based organization tool for Python's benefit), I don't personally see anything going anywhere. This is an area I'd be glad to step up in and yet might as well not bother, given the glorious infighting we do about the various web frameworks/libraries.
I hate to sound negative, because I love Python and I'm really not negative about the Python community at large. But there are portions of our community that are so entrenched, I don't feel like there's anything I could ever hope to accomplish there.
Steve, you might look to the Ubuntu project for in...
Stani · 2009-12-01T09:56:26.432000
Steve, you might look to the Ubuntu project for inspiration. They organize various events to get the community involved such as open week, bug jams, hug days, ... as it helps potential volunteers where and how to contribute.
This book might interest you as well: http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/09/18/the-art-of-community-available-for-free-download/ http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/downloads/jonobacon-theartofcommunity-1ed.pdf
@Daniel: Thanks for writing. As individuals we are...
Steve · 2009-12-01T10:10:17.589000
@Daniel: Thanks for writing. As individuals we are all small, insignificant members of the community, but the community is simply the aggregation of the individual members. Without each member the community would be less than it is.
I'm really sorry to hear about your experience as "just a Django guy". It seems to me that the same thing happens to the "Zope guys" and the "Plone guys". These technologies should be poster-children for the Python language, and yet I hear members of their communities don't feel like they belong in the Python world. I'd like to see much stronger bonds.
As PSF chairman it is easy to feel tired and overworked; and yet the most rewarding experiences I have had in the last year have been the meetings of local users groups that I have attended. Bruce Eckel described very well at EuroPython the positive aspects of being among Python users, and it's those aspects I'd like to encourage.
In so far as I am a part of the PSF "management" you can regard this as a focus on how to get more people involved. I think it's sufficiently important to take the risk of sounding negative to get to the root of this problem. If Python users feel excluded from the community then we need to do something about it. People need to feel welcome to be able to contribute effectively.
@Stani: Thanks very much. This demonstrates very w...
Steve · 2009-12-01T10:34:04.863000
@Stani: Thanks very much. This demonstrates very well the benefits of a timed release cycle. I hope that the Python community will be able to put something similar together.
There have been discussions about having some sort of "community leadership summit" at PyCon, to get the leaders of local user groups together and share information of use to them all. Maybe the summit would be a suitable venue to discuss organizing the first "Python Community Day" or whatever it should be called.
@Carl: You don't need to be a high-powered pro...
Steve · 2009-12-01T01:52:17.373000
@Carl: You don't need to be a high-powered programmer to have an opinion. I suppose my major point was that we should be listening more carefully to the broader user community.@Antoine: It looks as though the issue is that Firefox assumes that the password is the same for both trackers. I recently saw a similar problem report about inability to create an account on the Python tracker, though. And why don't the sites make it clear in their headings what they are tracking issues for? That's poor UI design.
I believe we have to ask ourselves why we aren't snowed under with volunteer developers. It's a serious concern for the future.
@Jesse: This isn't just about PyPi, but I do regard the PyPi situation as symptomatic of a broader malaise. It would be a shame to leave a trail of half-finished solutions along the wayside on our path to some nebulous ideal.
@Catherine: If the help@python.org team would be prepared to take it on that would be great, but the real problem is the one you identify - the channels are hidden from the majority of users. It could certainly use some more publicity.
@Titus: this isn't a programming problem, it's a cultural problem, so I am trying to fix it. It's a bad mistake to assume that the solution to every problem is more technology - I could spend weeks rewriting PyPi and come up with something that's worse than the current version.
I agree whole-heartedly about the better path to get involved - and I share your concern about fragmenting the development efforts. With a larger developer pool this might be less of a concern, though.
@Brendan: Thanks for the support. I too think that criticism and recognition of the need to improve is a positive thing. I also agree that the Python team has indeed put a terrific infrastructure together, but this isn't just about technology.
@Jesse: The problems seem to stem more from dependence on a single developer than on a single code base. Competition is good when there's no shortage of resources, but where developers are concerned that isn't the position right now.
@Paul: Your opinion seems neither paranoid or petty. I'm not sure who "the people" making these decisions about python.org are, but I do know that more people should be involved. There seems to be very little enthusiasm for innovation among the present maintainers - this could be because they are at full stretch already, though I don't see the results in the web site if that is the case.
You may be a cynic, but you have great Python credentials. I don't claim to know best, and need help from a broad cross-section of the Python community to try and improve things.
@steve - frankly, it's both. You and I both kn...
Jesse · 2009-12-01T02:08:25.407000
@steve - frankly, it's both. You and I both know it's difficult to get changes into the main site, and sub-sites such as PyPi are no exception. It's part social, and part technical.When I say "build a competitor" - I mean both socially, and technically. I would rather have 10 failed starts spawn 1 good one, then to sit around trying to get consensus on what changes are the best, trying not to offend anyone, etc.
Having 30 volunteers offer to fix something, or change something fundamental doesn't solve the fact that the people on the other side may not be listening, or can simply say "no".
@Jesse: Well we certainly agree on the goal of imp...
Steve · 2009-12-01T02:25:34.355000
@Jesse: Well we certainly agree on the goal of improving Python's web presence. The thing that worries me is the perception that there are sides. We should all be working for Python's benefit here, in the knowledge that greater popularity for Python represents more opportunity for us. I don't expect people to be totally altruistic.I agree that the consensus-building approach isn't working as well as I'd like. Maybe we need a bit more autocracy for a while - then at least responsibility for problems would be more readily identifiable!
@Steve, my solution is always more technology, don...
Titus Brown · 2009-12-01T02:53:02.348000
@Steve, my solution is always more technology, dontcha know?But seriously, what I don't understand is this: what is holding people back from contributing? There's a lot of goodwill in the Python community among the non-contributors, and I anecdotally hear about these legions who want to contribute. I see opportunities for personal contribution all the time, and I don't -- but that's because I don't have the time to do anything. Do I/we need to publicize these opportunities? What's holding them all back?
I really don't think the problem is a lack of things to fix, or a lack of direction -- i.e. complaints aren't going to help, much. We need more people actually doing something, anything. And we need the organization to take advantage of those people, when and if they show up.
I feel like I'm rambling.
I appreciate posts like this Steve, so keep them u...
Empty · 2009-12-01T03:25:58.507000
I appreciate posts like this Steve, so keep them up.The perception is that there are not volunteers. From where I sit there are plenty of people wanting to get their hands dirty, but the "old boy's club" is making them feel very unwelcome. The communication seems to be, "Help us as long as you filter everything through us." Part of volunteering is also being able to have some sort of participation in the decision process. That doesn't seem to be allowed. So you might want to start there.
No one from the PyPi community has ever said, "Jump in and help us make it better." Instead it's more like, "Send us code and we'll decide if we want to let it in or not." That will not get you far.
Instead of doing surveys around comments and such, just fix the f'n search capability. You know basic stuff. Show you're really interested in making it useful.
@Titus: I am sure the problem isn't a lack of ...
Steve · 2009-12-01T04:14:46.428000
@Titus: I am sure the problem isn't a lack of things to fix. I am perplexed by the common remarks (see Empty's comments immediately after yours) that contributors are made to feel unwelcome.I have spent some effort in the last year publicizing various opportunities, with mixed results. We could certainly use more developers, more writers, more testers, more webmasters ... the list goes on and on. But are people aware of these needs? Do they realize that they are suitable candidates?
You hit the nail on the head: we aren't properly organized to make new contributors feel welcome, and we don't offer them the support they need to reach productivity. I'd like to work out how to change that. Quite apart from anything else it could help our efforts to increase diversity.
@Empty: I think that is an important contribution. Am I a part of the "old boys' club"? Is this a real phenomenon, or are people waiting to be asked in the expectation that they will be slapped down if they just roll their sleeves up and start getting their hands dirty?
I'm not really sure that there is an identifiable "PyPi community", so there may not be much of a decision process either, though it sounds as though you have been rebuffed in the past. As far as I know the PyPi code is stored in a Subversion repository. I can easily look into what's required to get access to that repository if you'd like.
Maybe the obstacles are mostly imaginary. If not, once we have identified them we will be a least a part of the way towards removing them.
First, Steve, please don't quit. I appreciate ...
Daniel Lindsley · 2009-12-01T07:29:21.396000
First, Steve, please don't quit. I appreciate everything you (and the other PSF board members) do.To be honest, as a small, insignificant member of the community, I'd have no idea where to even begin helping out in the greater Python world. A lot of comments here make it sound like it's obvious. It's not. In five years of heavy Python use, Catherine's comment above is the first I've ever heard of "help@python.org" and I'd still have to go Google/Bing/Yahoo it just to know what it's for.
Beyond that, my perception from the trenches (if you will) is that there are indeed "sides" in the Python community. I've been privy to a couple of them, so I refuse to be told they don't exist. I consider myself a Python programmer, but the stigmata I've been given in the past is that I'm just a "Django guy" and was summarily dismissed as a result.
There are a couple things that jump out at me from reading through the comments. One: the "high-up" members of the community are tired and overworked, dedicating what they can to the language they enjoy using. Two: there's a massive Python user-base that aren't involved in day-to-day improvements. Three: everyone seems to agree there are things we need to improve on, even if we can't 100% agree with what they are. If it were up to me, I would say the PSF (or whoever it should be) should spend some time (hopefully paid) focusing on how to get more people involved.
As far as improving X (where X is PyPi/the bug tracker/any other web-based organization tool for Python's benefit), I don't personally see anything going anywhere. This is an area I'd be glad to step up in and yet might as well not bother, given the glorious infighting we do about the various web frameworks/libraries.
I hate to sound negative, because I love Python and I'm really not negative about the Python community at large. But there are portions of our community that are so entrenched, I don't feel like there's anything I could ever hope to accomplish there.
Steve, you might look to the Ubuntu project for in...
Stani · 2009-12-01T09:56:26.432000
Steve, you might look to the Ubuntu project for inspiration. They organize various events to get the community involved such as open week, bug jams, hug days, ... as it helps potential volunteers where and how to contribute.https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeekhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
This book might interest you as well:
http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/09/18/the-art-of-community-available-for-free-download/
http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/downloads/jonobacon-theartofcommunity-1ed.pdf
@Daniel: Thanks for writing. As individuals we are...
Steve · 2009-12-01T10:10:17.589000
@Daniel: Thanks for writing. As individuals we are all small, insignificant members of the community, but the community is simply the aggregation of the individual members. Without each member the community would be less than it is.I'm really sorry to hear about your experience as "just a Django guy". It seems to me that the same thing happens to the "Zope guys" and the "Plone guys". These technologies should be poster-children for the Python language, and yet I hear members of their communities don't feel like they belong in the Python world. I'd like to see much stronger bonds.
As PSF chairman it is easy to feel tired and overworked; and yet the most rewarding experiences I have had in the last year have been the meetings of local users groups that I have attended. Bruce Eckel described very well at EuroPython the positive aspects of being among Python users, and it's those aspects I'd like to encourage.
In so far as I am a part of the PSF "management" you can regard this as a focus on how to get more people involved. I think it's sufficiently important to take the risk of sounding negative to get to the root of this problem. If Python users feel excluded from the community then we need to do something about it. People need to feel welcome to be able to contribute effectively.
@Stani: Thanks very much. This demonstrates very w...
Steve · 2009-12-01T10:34:04.863000
@Stani: Thanks very much. This demonstrates very well the benefits of a timed release cycle. I hope that the Python community will be able to put something similar together.There have been discussions about having some sort of "community leadership summit" at PyCon, to get the leaders of local user groups together and share information of use to them all. Maybe the summit would be a suitable venue to discuss organizing the first "Python Community Day" or whatever it should be called.
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