Either it's OK or it's not OK. You can...
victor detritus · 2011-07-02T10:57:03.396000
Either it's OK or it's not OK. You can't have it both ways.
If it's not OK, take a stand and do something about it. If it is OK, don't make these sideswipe remarks. This type of commentary only paints you as a point-scoring fence-sitter.
Hello all.
Looks like you guys don't like the...
Frank Smit · 2011-07-02T11:33:11.089000
Hello all.
Looks like you guys don't like the name I choose for my package. I quite like it though. And I don't think it's an offensive word.
What I don't understand is that you don't send me an email. You can just say "We think the name you chose for your package is not appropriate. Can you change it?". My email is on the package page.
But no, instead I get an email from someone else saying it would be better if the name's changed.
Meh.
I have no problems with changing the name. Just ask directly. Most of the people are saying "bla bla I don't like this shit", but actually saying it saying it to me... no.
Well, anyone got suggestions for a new name?
Steve, the concept of censorship is usually misund...
Joe · 2011-07-02T19:08:25.957000
Steve, the concept of censorship is usually misunderstood. A government can censor something, e.g., by shutting down a newspaper, not allowing a book to be published, or taking some other coercive action against someone based on some usually ambiguous edict. The PSF is a voluntary association. It's entirely within PSF's rights to dictate parameters for what material will be published through its websites. That would not constitute censorship, because any person who had a problem with your guidelines (or decisions) could still publish the package on their own (whereas a censored book author --think Solzhenitsyn, doesn't has such a choice except outside his country).
@Joe, thanks for the clarification on censorship. ...
Steve · 2011-07-03T02:10:53.429000
@Joe, thanks for the clarification on censorship. Given modern Python distribution techniques and technologies I believe that removal from PyPi would effectively render the software much less available than a simple pip install. Until the distribution system can easily handle multiple repositories (and is adjusted to do so) PyPi is effectively the only game in town.
Steve,
I would agree with Anonymous, autoloquist,...
David Eyk · 2011-07-03T06:12:14.672000
Steve,
I would agree with Anonymous, autoloquist, and Joe--this would not be censorship, but ostracizing, with the goal of upholding and reinforcing established community values. I see no problem with community leadership deciding that Mr. Smit can choose an inoffensive package name, or he should take his code elsewhere. (PyPI is not the only game in town--plenty of python projects eschew the package index, and are installable with something like `pip -e`.)
If the PSF is truly committed to providing a welcoming environment to all, regardless of race, creed, or sex, at some point you are going to need to stand up for those convictions--not in self-righteousness, but out of humble concern for the health of the community. Would the PSF tolerate a vaguely racist package name?
Please do not misunderstand me: the Python community does not need a vice squad. Jack Diedrich is right, in that this is *not* a common problem in this community. I am very happy that I can attend PyCon or DjangoCon, and I can expect not to be subjected to pornography or demeaning jokes in the course of a technical presentation. This is not the case in certain other language communities. We need to understand and value this distinction, not sit idly by while such churlishness seeps into our infrastructure.
I would also agree this far with Mr. Smit--he has the right of common courtesy, instead of this passive-aggressive treatment. Rather than going from closed-room discussions straight to public blog post, this could have been handled quietly, personally, and politely. If Mr. Smit had been disagreeable at this stage, a blog post and community discussion would then become appropriate and timely.
We may not need police, but we do need humble and courageous leadership. Humility seeks the best for others, thinks the best of others, *expects* the best from others, and draws the best out of others through patience, love, and service. I've seen the PSF act this out time and time again, and I hold you guys in high esteem for the ways you're steering the community. Please don't back down simply because this is a thorny issue. You're going to draw criticism either way--best to be criticized for doing the right thing for the community.
We in the community also need to do our part. I actually encountered Mr. Smit's package several weeks ago. Even though the technical functionality would be especially useful to me on my current project, I did not use it, in the end because of the name. I thought about contacting the author to complain about the package name, but I didn't, and I should have, and perhaps I will. If we're to expect courage of conviction from our leaders, we should learn to develop it within ourselves.
I dislike political correctness in all its forms, ...
peter9477 · 2011-07-03T14:19:09.776000
I dislike political correctness in all its forms, and to me this discussion just reeks of it.
When I see a name like upskirt for a package, I chuckle briefly and move on (or, perhaps, use it, but either way it's not that important what its name is). I do the same even for those which reference and mock things that might define me, such as being a geek, a WASP, middle-aged, balding, lazy, uptight, or whatever it might be.
Maybe my problem is simply that I have a sense of humour...
If there's anything that seems "juvenile" about this to me, it's making an issue out of it. Remember? sticks and stones can break my bones, but names (especially the names of software libraries I may use) can never hurt me.
""" My personal distate for these p...
Anonymous · 2011-07-03T17:07:27.171000
""" My personal distate for these particular names is heightened because it appears that the original libupskirt author's acceptance on trust of a foreign-language name for her library has caused her considerable discomfort and possibly harassment. She apparently no longer wishes to work on open source."""
Do you have any backup for these statements? It seems odd, because (1) she could have changed the name when she found out and (2) she made public commits just last month to libupskirt when the library has been active for years.
Also, some foreigners speak English very well; Natacha's English posts are written in perfectly good English. Maybe she knew what it means and thought it was a funny twist on markdown.
I don't know. I would just like to see a link to an online statement or similar.
@David Eyk I agree that in retrospect it would per...
Steve · 2011-07-03T17:53:28.735000
@David Eyk I agree that in retrospect it would perhaps have been better to contact Mr. Smit directly about his choice of names (and I still hope to reply to his comment above). That would, however, only have solved a single incident of a problem that is really much wider, and it was really the wider problem I wanted to bring to people's attention.
@pter9477 easy for you to chuckle from your point of view coming from (I presume) white male privilege. Women are fighting this kind of stuff every day, and it just gets a bit too remorseless to let you keep your sense of humor when it's directed at you rather than some other group.
@anonymous Yes, I have corresponded personally with the original author of libupskirt. She is very bravely taking responsibility for the name, though it was suggested to her by a third party. She is already upset enough about this to be leaving the open source world, so your wish for "an online statement or similar" will just have to go ungranted.
I changed the name of the package to Misaka. Not b...
Frank Smit · 2011-07-03T20:48:14.160000
I changed the name of the package to Misaka. Not because of this blogpost, but because some people actually asked me and had a very good reason.
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/misaka
Taking my own advice, I have been in touch with Fr...
David Eyk · 2011-07-03T21:39:44.959000
Taking my own advice, I have been in touch with Frank Smit by email. He has been very gracious, and says that he will be renaming the package today (Sunday), allowing time for the subdomain DNS to propagate.
@Steve: Agreed, it's valuable to have this discussion.
Either it's OK or it's not OK. You can...
victor detritus · 2011-07-02T10:57:03.396000
Either it's OK or it's not OK. You can't have it both ways.If it's not OK, take a stand and do something about it. If it is OK, don't make these sideswipe remarks. This type of commentary only paints you as a point-scoring fence-sitter.
Hello all. Looks like you guys don't like the...
Frank Smit · 2011-07-02T11:33:11.089000
Hello all.Looks like you guys don't like the name I choose for my package. I quite like it though. And I don't think it's an offensive word.
What I don't understand is that you don't send me an email. You can just say "We think the name you chose for your package is not appropriate. Can you change it?". My email is on the package page.
But no, instead I get an email from someone else saying it would be better if the name's changed.
Meh.
I have no problems with changing the name. Just ask directly. Most of the people are saying "bla bla I don't like this shit", but actually saying it saying it to me... no.
Well, anyone got suggestions for a new name?
Steve, the concept of censorship is usually misund...
Joe · 2011-07-02T19:08:25.957000
Steve, the concept of censorship is usually misunderstood. A government can censor something, e.g., by shutting down a newspaper, not allowing a book to be published, or taking some other coercive action against someone based on some usually ambiguous edict. The PSF is a voluntary association. It's entirely within PSF's rights to dictate parameters for what material will be published through its websites. That would not constitute censorship, because any person who had a problem with your guidelines (or decisions) could still publish the package on their own (whereas a censored book author --think Solzhenitsyn, doesn't has such a choice except outside his country).@Joe, thanks for the clarification on censorship. ...
Steve · 2011-07-03T02:10:53.429000
@Joe, thanks for the clarification on censorship. Given modern Python distribution techniques and technologies I believe that removal from PyPi would effectively render the software much less available than a simple pip install. Until the distribution system can easily handle multiple repositories (and is adjusted to do so) PyPi is effectively the only game in town.Steve, I would agree with Anonymous, autoloquist,...
David Eyk · 2011-07-03T06:12:14.672000
Steve,I would agree with Anonymous, autoloquist, and Joe--this would not be censorship, but ostracizing, with the goal of upholding and reinforcing established community values. I see no problem with community leadership deciding that Mr. Smit can choose an inoffensive package name, or he should take his code elsewhere. (PyPI is not the only game in town--plenty of python projects eschew the package index, and are installable with something like `pip -e`.)
If the PSF is truly committed to providing a welcoming environment to all, regardless of race, creed, or sex, at some point you are going to need to stand up for those convictions--not in self-righteousness, but out of humble concern for the health of the community. Would the PSF tolerate a vaguely racist package name?
Please do not misunderstand me: the Python community does not need a vice squad. Jack Diedrich is right, in that this is *not* a common problem in this community. I am very happy that I can attend PyCon or DjangoCon, and I can expect not to be subjected to pornography or demeaning jokes in the course of a technical presentation. This is not the case in certain other language communities. We need to understand and value this distinction, not sit idly by while such churlishness seeps into our infrastructure.
I would also agree this far with Mr. Smit--he has the right of common courtesy, instead of this passive-aggressive treatment. Rather than going from closed-room discussions straight to public blog post, this could have been handled quietly, personally, and politely. If Mr. Smit had been disagreeable at this stage, a blog post and community discussion would then become appropriate and timely.
We may not need police, but we do need humble and courageous leadership. Humility seeks the best for others, thinks the best of others, *expects* the best from others, and draws the best out of others through patience, love, and service. I've seen the PSF act this out time and time again, and I hold you guys in high esteem for the ways you're steering the community. Please don't back down simply because this is a thorny issue. You're going to draw criticism either way--best to be criticized for doing the right thing for the community.
We in the community also need to do our part. I actually encountered Mr. Smit's package several weeks ago. Even though the technical functionality would be especially useful to me on my current project, I did not use it, in the end because of the name. I thought about contacting the author to complain about the package name, but I didn't, and I should have, and perhaps I will. If we're to expect courage of conviction from our leaders, we should learn to develop it within ourselves.
I dislike political correctness in all its forms, ...
peter9477 · 2011-07-03T14:19:09.776000
I dislike political correctness in all its forms, and to me this discussion just reeks of it.When I see a name like upskirt for a package, I chuckle briefly and move on (or, perhaps, use it, but either way it's not that important what its name is). I do the same even for those which reference and mock things that might define me, such as being a geek, a WASP, middle-aged, balding, lazy, uptight, or whatever it might be.
Maybe my problem is simply that I have a sense of humour...
If there's anything that seems "juvenile" about this to me, it's making an issue out of it. Remember? sticks and stones can break my bones, but names (especially the names of software libraries I may use) can never hurt me.
""" My personal distate for these p...
Anonymous · 2011-07-03T17:07:27.171000
""" My personal distate for these particular names is heightened because it appears that the original libupskirt author's acceptance on trust of a foreign-language name for her library has caused her considerable discomfort and possibly harassment. She apparently no longer wishes to work on open source."""Do you have any backup for these statements? It seems odd, because (1) she could have changed the name when she found out and (2) she made public commits just last month to libupskirt when the library has been active for years.
Also, some foreigners speak English very well; Natacha's English posts are written in perfectly good English. Maybe she knew what it means and thought it was a funny twist on markdown.
I don't know. I would just like to see a link to an online statement or similar.
@David Eyk I agree that in retrospect it would per...
Steve · 2011-07-03T17:53:28.735000
@David Eyk I agree that in retrospect it would perhaps have been better to contact Mr. Smit directly about his choice of names (and I still hope to reply to his comment above). That would, however, only have solved a single incident of a problem that is really much wider, and it was really the wider problem I wanted to bring to people's attention.@pter9477 easy for you to chuckle from your point of view coming from (I presume) white male privilege. Women are fighting this kind of stuff every day, and it just gets a bit too remorseless to let you keep your sense of humor when it's directed at you rather than some other group.
@anonymous Yes, I have corresponded personally with the original author of libupskirt. She is very bravely taking responsibility for the name, though it was suggested to her by a third party. She is already upset enough about this to be leaving the open source world, so your wish for "an online statement or similar" will just have to go ungranted.
I changed the name of the package to Misaka. Not b...
Frank Smit · 2011-07-03T20:48:14.160000
I changed the name of the package to Misaka. Not because of this blogpost, but because some people actually asked me and had a very good reason.http://pypi.python.org/pypi/misaka
Taking my own advice, I have been in touch with Fr...
David Eyk · 2011-07-03T21:39:44.959000
Taking my own advice, I have been in touch with Frank Smit by email. He has been very gracious, and says that he will be renaming the package today (Sunday), allowing time for the subdomain DNS to propagate.@Steve: Agreed, it's valuable to have this discussion.
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