Steve: By the wording of your statement, you seem ...
arjie · 2011-07-05T13:34:27.319000
Steve: By the wording of your statement, you seem to imply that the original author was unaware of the connotations of the word 'upskirt'. Is this true? Also, about the harassment that she is receiving: Is she being harassed by opponents of the name or by other people?
when serious talk about thoughtcrime starts making...
Anonymous · 2011-07-05T13:44:38.049000
when serious talk about thoughtcrime starts making it's way into an organization, it's pretty clear that it's past it's prime.
You might want to know that the original author of...
Anonymous · 2011-07-05T13:45:50.689000
You might want to know that the original author of libupskirt, Natacha Porté, is a woman. Is she detering other women from taking part in FLOSS community?
If it was socially acceptable for men to wear skir...
Anonymous · 2011-07-05T13:58:11.540000
If it was socially acceptable for men to wear skirts this wouldn't be a gender issue. But that's likely not going to change anytime soon. Though the men who are brave enough to wear kilts, well good on ya.
What's offensive to one person is not necessarily offensive to another. The person who named the library has the right to name it whatever they want. After all you are not forced to use it and no one is stuffing it in your face.
Someone mentioned that the library name should be more descriptive. I don't think that holds true. There are lots of libraries named after things the developer is interested such as mythology, astrology, tv shows or movies. This particular developer is interested in upskirts apparently and they aren't afraid to share it with the world.
Try not to get your panties in a knot over such a trivial thing.
Add a rider to the site about offensive content an...
Paddy3118 · 2011-07-05T17:23:38.879000
Add a rider to the site about offensive content and delete or forcibly change the name shown on your servers to something inoffensive like a plain number.
It is not the kind of community behaviour I would like to encourage.
This whole debate is Pythonic -- not the language,...
cdjaco · 2011-07-05T17:36:08.840000
This whole debate is Pythonic -- not the language, but the group it is named after: Monty Python. Am I the only one struck by the absurdity here, in the outrage over what something is *named* rather than what it *does*?
Note to self: when designing a human-slaughtering robot, call it "FlowerPuppies" so nobody is offended.
On the one side, it is offensive to assume that ju...
manuel moe g · 2011-07-05T19:11:38.930000
On the one side, it is offensive to assume that juvenile humor implies causing active harm to women. If one is amused by the names "upskirt" "pantyshot", this does not imply that we are talking about a fellow who doesn't cherish and support the women in his life. To assume the implication is inescapable is hysterical.
One the other side, "political correctness" is simply a tool, it is not good or bad in of itself, it is only good or bad situationally. Sometimes political correctness can be used to attack the well meaning, and score cheap points through cynical lip service. When it is helpful, it communicates that a community differentiates itself from other communities by tolerating this and being intolerant of that, to the benefit of the vast majority of the community, by stopping the actually destructive behavior and by pushing the actually destructive people out to other communities (with the possibility of collateral damage taken seriously, because no rule can compensate for the fact that we do not have access to the internal motives of others.)
Those who wish to wield "political correctness" could prove their sound judgement by always making it clear that potentially offensive speech does not inescapably imply bad motives or willingness to take bad action, and can be quite compatible with good motives and good action. Make the case that using "political correctness" to advertise differences between our community and other communities ultimately benefits the vast majority of people in our community.
The other thing is that these type of comment threads attract idiots. Case in point: me.
Author of downblouse, the .NET bindings for upskir...
Brandon Croft · 2011-07-05T22:18:50.124000
Author of downblouse, the .NET bindings for upskirt, here.
As a .NET developer, I like to take every opportunity to add some irreverence to the sterility and corporate tastelessness of my particular platform/community. I'd go so far as to say that my juvenile project naming contributes directly to 'the diversity of the ecosphere'. insofar as it affects .NET.
Admittedly, I'm a male and may be suffering from the kind of biases that perpetuate our male-dominated society and industry. I'm not sure yet.
In another line of reasoning, I would just as quickly name a software project in such a way to be marginally offensive to any sex, social group, ethic or religious group, or subculture. I like being marginally offensive, especially as it relates to my stupid little profession, and I do this shit for free.
Perhaps we should complain to the authors of The Gimp for their juvenile project name next?
@Brandon Croft: I fully understand and appreciate ...
Steve · 2011-07-05T23:55:58.251000
@Brandon Croft: I fully understand and appreciate your wish to retain humor as an element of the open source ecosystem—after all, as has been pointed out, Pythonesque has come to mean quirky and irreverent. I don't ever remember it being deliberately offensive about anything (although John Cleese had some sharp words for Malcolm Muggeridge and an archbishop on the subject of whether Life of Brian was offensive to Christians). But smiling is both easier and healthier than frowning.
This whole thing wasn't a ruse, it was simply a documented response to a particular set of circumstances, some of which I did not fully appreciate at the outset. I think that's called "life".
I have read enough comment threads to blog posts on broadly feminist issues to understand that much of the comment will be knee-jerk (sometime less knee, sometimes more), and I believe so far I have published every comment that I have received.
Several women have told me privately that they are glad I took this action, but have not publicly joined this thread for fear of inflaming the comments just as things seem to be nicely dying down.
For the record, I do agree it might have been better to contact Frank Smit directly first (and a colleague had planned to). Fortunately Mr. Smit has shown grace under fire and transmogrified his offensive-to-some name into a cunningly derivate name much less likely to offend. It goes without saying that the foregoing is my opinion. Readers are free to differ. Offense, after all, is taken as well as given, and intent is difficult to read in those who are known only as text sources.
As to whether you are suffering from male biases I wouldn't presume to look inside your head, but I will say that since the diversity list started (and early on I engaged fully in the dialogues) I have perceived such biases in myself and others, and tried to do something to adjust them (the post that started this discussion being one such attempt, by the way).
It has been interesting seeing the broad spectrum of reactions as the conversation developed. Clearly with a topic that provokes such polarized views not everyone will be happy with any given action, so I suppose it is gratifying that those who believe I took a legitimate action do pretty much balance out the number who believe I am a pathetic moron for bringing this up in the first place.
I should like to thank everyone who has taken part. I believe this matter is now closed. Though readers are again free to disagree, if things get out of hand I shall have no hesitation in shutting comments down or even (dare I say) censoring them. This is my blog, not a newspaper, after all.
Finally, in suggesting that The Gimp is anything other than a name intended to honor our wounded troops you sully the name of a fine piece of software. Shame on you sir, have you no decency? [Is a smiley really necessary? Very well, then. ;-)]
Natache Porté (if I may presume to speak for her, though she has not asked me to do so) has chosen to leave open source because of both the package naming issue and the issue of being written out of a package's history. I should say neither of these reasons reflect well on the open source community to which she made a valuable contribution, and her gain is definitely the open source community's loss. I regard that as very unfortunate, and a useful exemplar of the way that groups can be (sometimes unknowingly) self-selecting.
> This begs the question of why an English-spea...
Anonymous · 2011-07-06T10:19:18.266000
> This begs the question of why an English-speaking author
Argh!
Excuse me, but a literate English speaking person should know that "begs the question" means the rethorical 'petitio principii' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question )
(Not a native speaker, just annoyed at creeping misuse)
Steve: By the wording of your statement, you seem ...
arjie · 2011-07-05T13:34:27.319000
Steve: By the wording of your statement, you seem to imply that the original author was unaware of the connotations of the word 'upskirt'. Is this true? Also, about the harassment that she is receiving: Is she being harassed by opponents of the name or by other people?when serious talk about thoughtcrime starts making...
Anonymous · 2011-07-05T13:44:38.049000
when serious talk about thoughtcrime starts making it's way into an organization, it's pretty clear that it's past it's prime.You might want to know that the original author of...
Anonymous · 2011-07-05T13:45:50.689000
You might want to know that the original author of libupskirt, Natacha Porté, is a woman. Is she detering other women from taking part in FLOSS community?If it was socially acceptable for men to wear skir...
Anonymous · 2011-07-05T13:58:11.540000
If it was socially acceptable for men to wear skirts this wouldn't be a gender issue. But that's likely not going to change anytime soon. Though the men who are brave enough to wear kilts, well good on ya.What's offensive to one person is not necessarily offensive to another. The person who named the library has the right to name it whatever they want. After all you are not forced to use it and no one is stuffing it in your face.
Someone mentioned that the library name should be more descriptive. I don't think that holds true. There are lots of libraries named after things the developer is interested such as mythology, astrology, tv shows or movies. This particular developer is interested in upskirts apparently and they aren't afraid to share it with the world.
Try not to get your panties in a knot over such a trivial thing.
Add a rider to the site about offensive content an...
Paddy3118 · 2011-07-05T17:23:38.879000
Add a rider to the site about offensive content and delete or forcibly change the name shown on your servers to something inoffensive like a plain number.It is not the kind of community behaviour I would like to encourage.
This whole debate is Pythonic -- not the language,...
cdjaco · 2011-07-05T17:36:08.840000
This whole debate is Pythonic -- not the language, but the group it is named after: Monty Python. Am I the only one struck by the absurdity here, in the outrage over what something is *named* rather than what it *does*?Note to self: when designing a human-slaughtering robot, call it "FlowerPuppies" so nobody is offended.
On the one side, it is offensive to assume that ju...
manuel moe g · 2011-07-05T19:11:38.930000
On the one side, it is offensive to assume that juvenile humor implies causing active harm to women. If one is amused by the names "upskirt" "pantyshot", this does not imply that we are talking about a fellow who doesn't cherish and support the women in his life. To assume the implication is inescapable is hysterical.One the other side, "political correctness" is simply a tool, it is not good or bad in of itself, it is only good or bad situationally. Sometimes political correctness can be used to attack the well meaning, and score cheap points through cynical lip service. When it is helpful, it communicates that a community differentiates itself from other communities by tolerating this and being intolerant of that, to the benefit of the vast majority of the community, by stopping the actually destructive behavior and by pushing the actually destructive people out to other communities (with the possibility of collateral damage taken seriously, because no rule can compensate for the fact that we do not have access to the internal motives of others.)
Those who wish to wield "political correctness" could prove their sound judgement by always making it clear that potentially offensive speech does not inescapably imply bad motives or willingness to take bad action, and can be quite compatible with good motives and good action. Make the case that using "political correctness" to advertise differences between our community and other communities ultimately benefits the vast majority of people in our community.
The other thing is that these type of comment threads attract idiots. Case in point: me.
Author of downblouse, the .NET bindings for upskir...
Brandon Croft · 2011-07-05T22:18:50.124000
Author of downblouse, the .NET bindings for upskirt, here.As a .NET developer, I like to take every opportunity to add some irreverence to the sterility and corporate tastelessness of my particular platform/community. I'd go so far as to say that my juvenile project naming contributes directly to 'the diversity of the ecosphere'. insofar as it affects .NET.
Admittedly, I'm a male and may be suffering from the kind of biases that perpetuate our male-dominated society and industry. I'm not sure yet.
In another line of reasoning, I would just as quickly name a software project in such a way to be marginally offensive to any sex, social group, ethic or religious group, or subculture. I like being marginally offensive, especially as it relates to my stupid little profession, and I do this shit for free.
Perhaps we should complain to the authors of The Gimp for their juvenile project name next?
@Brandon Croft: I fully understand and appreciate ...
Steve · 2011-07-05T23:55:58.251000
@Brandon Croft: I fully understand and appreciate your wish to retain humor as an element of the open source ecosystem—after all, as has been pointed out, Pythonesque has come to mean quirky and irreverent. I don't ever remember it being deliberately offensive about anything (although John Cleese had some sharp words for Malcolm Muggeridge and an archbishop on the subject of whether Life of Brian was offensive to Christians). But smiling is both easier and healthier than frowning.This whole thing wasn't a ruse, it was simply a documented response to a particular set of circumstances, some of which I did not fully appreciate at the outset. I think that's called "life".
I have read enough comment threads to blog posts on broadly feminist issues to understand that much of the comment will be knee-jerk (sometime less knee, sometimes more), and I believe so far I have published every comment that I have received.
Several women have told me privately that they are glad I took this action, but have not publicly joined this thread for fear of inflaming the comments just as things seem to be nicely dying down.
For the record, I do agree it might have been better to contact Frank Smit directly first (and a colleague had planned to). Fortunately Mr. Smit has shown grace under fire and transmogrified his offensive-to-some name into a cunningly derivate name much less likely to offend. It goes without saying that the foregoing is my opinion. Readers are free to differ. Offense, after all, is taken as well as given, and intent is difficult to read in those who are known only as text sources.
As to whether you are suffering from male biases I wouldn't presume to look inside your head, but I will say that since the diversity list started (and early on I engaged fully in the dialogues) I have perceived such biases in myself and others, and tried to do something to adjust them (the post that started this discussion being one such attempt, by the way).
It has been interesting seeing the broad spectrum of reactions as the conversation developed. Clearly with a topic that provokes such polarized views not everyone will be happy with any given action, so I suppose it is gratifying that those who believe I took a legitimate action do pretty much balance out the number who believe I am a pathetic moron for bringing this up in the first place.
I should like to thank everyone who has taken part. I believe this matter is now closed. Though readers are again free to disagree, if things get out of hand I shall have no hesitation in shutting comments down or even (dare I say) censoring them. This is my blog, not a newspaper, after all.
Finally, in suggesting that The Gimp is anything other than a name intended to honor our wounded troops you sully the name of a fine piece of software. Shame on you sir, have you no decency? [Is a smiley really necessary? Very well, then. ;-)]
Natache Porté (if I may presume to speak for her, though she has not asked me to do so) has chosen to leave open source because of both the package naming issue and the issue of being written out of a package's history. I should say neither of these reasons reflect well on the open source community to which she made a valuable contribution, and her gain is definitely the open source community's loss. I regard that as very unfortunate, and a useful exemplar of the way that groups can be (sometimes unknowingly) self-selecting.
> This begs the question of why an English-spea...
Anonymous · 2011-07-06T10:19:18.266000
> This begs the question of why an English-speaking authorArgh!
Excuse me, but a literate English speaking person should know that "begs the question" means the rethorical 'petitio principii' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question )
(Not a native speaker, just annoyed at creeping misuse)
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