I have to say, I don't get the 'offensiven...
Anonymous · 2011-07-06T14:27:59.139000
I have to say, I don't get the 'offensiveness' of Misaka. Bing and Google are both leading most prominently to A Certain Scientific Railgun, and it's not in urban dictionary. Bing helpfully "corrects" my spelling and adds Mikasa crystal to the list. Perhaps your search engine has learned the types of things you search for?
Regarding the topic at hand, I'm not entirely sure anymore where I stand on feminism (and which parts of "feminism" in my head are actually straw feminism), but I have to say that none of pantyshot, downblouse, or upskirt are good names. Day-to-day work should not be a place where creepy/sex-related names are lurking. It's just something I don't want to be ever-present.
And for the "don't like = don't use" camp, if something with a bad name is the only alternative, it's lose-lose.
Who the hell cares about those package / library n...
Euro Eddi · 2011-07-06T14:54:07.930000
Who the hell cares about those package / library names?
Really, you Americans need to stop worrying about such things.
This would be a more pointed comment if I were, in...
Steve · 2011-07-06T15:33:02.719000
This would be a more pointed comment if I were, in fact, American.
I must admit that being an OSS contributor, I find...
Anonymous · 2011-07-06T18:54:28.781000
I must admit that being an OSS contributor, I find that ripping out one's author name from an OSS project is much more offensive to me than a "mere" (?) naming issue.
Feminists or females may be offended by the library name, we may label it as juvenile humor...
I would simply point out that the primary author of this library is a *female* *student*. She may have, like me, thought of Marylin Monroe's famous white dress photo.
I would add that: - programming for a living, I appreciate humour (even black humour) in software, it enlightens my day - I find good practice for a port to another language to retain the name of the original, it makes it easier to track
Finally... I am saddened that Natacha decided to get out of the OSS world. We lack females in the programming, and their different point of view cannot be emulated.
If I might, I have one contribution I would like t...
Michael Chermside · 2011-07-07T00:57:25.095000
If I might, I have one contribution I would like to make to the discussion. It is a note to Frank Smit.
Dear Frank:
I just wanted to say that I agreed with the PSF’s decision not to engage in censorship and with Steve’s decision to make a personal public statement about the issue. But that put you in a very difficult position: being criticized in a very public forum. I am impressed with and respect the way in which you handled this: explaining that you never intended to cause offense, but simultaneously expressing your willingness to voluntarily change the name to avoid any offense. Reacting this way, rather than expressing your own feelings of being under attack, took maturity and some guts on your part but it was the best thing for the Python community as a whole. (In fact, for the Open Source community as a whole.) I hope everyone addressing this and similar issues can strive to respond this well.
I dont understand the comments about Natacha being...
Brandon Croft · 2011-07-07T02:45:46.962000
I dont understand the comments about Natacha being 'written out of the history' of the project. She's been mentioned as the original author since the beginning of the readme, albiet with longer story up until more people got involved, at which point it became a list of contributors. Tanoku is listed in the credits after Natacha, and Natacha's website is the only hyperlinked entry.
Contributor list change: https://github.com/tanoku/upskirt/commit/cfa4e0934de0d1318c179f4b226b48b49b0dfb65#README.markdown
@anonymous: """Excuse me, but a lit...
Steve · 2011-07-07T04:04:33.408000
@anonymous: """Excuse me, but a literate English speaking person should know that "begs the question" means the rethorical 'petitio principii' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question )"""
Well I guess that makes me fucking illiterate, then, doesn't it? Thanks for your contribution :-)
@Michael Chermside: thanks Michael, you expressed ...
Steve · 2011-07-07T04:07:43.304000
@Michael Chermside: thanks Michael, you expressed your admiration for Frank Smit's response better than I was able to (though I tried). It would be nice to think that these issues can be taken seriously in the open source world, and that people of goodwill can make real progress on these complex and troubling issues.
Steve, as much as I respect your professional work...
Alitoh · 2011-07-11T21:10:26.679000
Steve, as much as I respect your professional work for he community, I must stand against your anally retentive morals.
So what if it's offensive? Just use any other goddamn parser.
Making this much of a big deal over something this retarded is immature from everybody even remotely offended.
The need for political correctness of most people today would be hilarious, if it weren't so sad. Instead of taking the highway and just pointing it out as just a "childish, stupid name", you decided to play pretend like "it's not a big deal" while clearly stating this as "omg! so hurtful for community".
The only people offended by this are stupid people. Smart women will know to not pay any attention and don't mind what some nobody with too much time in his hands names his code. Why can't smart men do the same, I wonder? Man-guilt?
Also, I'm terribly sorry that the tone of my message most likely is aggresive. It's my wish to make it clear that I admire your work and appreciate the community and wish for its well being ... But I don't think something so silly and irrelevant as this is actually doing us any good.
@Frank Railgun sucks, bro. Go buy a taste at seveneleven.
Steve;
I have been a huge fan of Python for more ...
sgtrock · 2011-07-11T21:33:21.463000
Steve;
I have been a huge fan of Python for more than ten years. I strongly urged the adoption of the language at a very large U.S. corporation. Now I wonder if that loyalty has been misplaced all these years.
The issue that you and Frank are missing is covered quite eloquently by Violet Blue. If you don't know Violet Blue, she has been writing about porn, erotica, sex education, and technology for years. She has written a weekly column in the San Francisco Chronicle, Salon, and ZDNet (which is how I got linked to your blog) as well as several books. When this woman says you're off base on this topic, you had better listen carefully:
“Upskirt” is shorthand for porn (images or video) that features a nonconsensual look up a girl’s skirt or dress.
Because you are a fine, upstanding kind of reader, I’m sure you know very little about online filth such as pornographic subcategories, their nicknames or history. Luckily for you, I am here to go where bald eagles dare.
Back in the early days of porn on the open internet that there was one red-hot minute when upskirt porn was legal. It is, in fact, illegal. Though I don’t think the FOSS community knows that detail - they were just up in arms about what to do when someone submits a package with a name that seems, well, sexist.
Pantyshot is a bird of identical plumage. It’s basically the same thing, but that term (rather than upskirt) is what describes “an upskirt” instance in Japanese anime and manga: the term panchira refers to a panty-shot. Whoever did the naming liked the nonconsensual act so much, they gave it the same name twice.
Get it now? These names are about NONCONSENSUAL ACTS! Frank is rubbing your nose in his fecal matter when he chose Misaka and pretended it didn't mean the exact same thing. The only appropriate step at this point is to remove these libraries from The Cheese Shop. Any other decision by the board would be condoning a misogynistic attitude that has absolutely no place on _any_ FOSS community.
And you wonder why we find it hard to recruit women to FOSS projects.
I have to say, I don't get the 'offensiven...
Anonymous · 2011-07-06T14:27:59.139000
I have to say, I don't get the 'offensiveness' of Misaka. Bing and Google are both leading most prominently to A Certain Scientific Railgun, and it's not in urban dictionary. Bing helpfully "corrects" my spelling and adds Mikasa crystal to the list. Perhaps your search engine has learned the types of things you search for?Regarding the topic at hand, I'm not entirely sure anymore where I stand on feminism (and which parts of "feminism" in my head are actually straw feminism), but I have to say that none of pantyshot, downblouse, or upskirt are good names. Day-to-day work should not be a place where creepy/sex-related names are lurking. It's just something I don't want to be ever-present.
And for the "don't like = don't use" camp, if something with a bad name is the only alternative, it's lose-lose.
Who the hell cares about those package / library n...
Euro Eddi · 2011-07-06T14:54:07.930000
Who the hell cares about those package / library names?Really, you Americans need to stop worrying about such things.
This would be a more pointed comment if I were, in...
Steve · 2011-07-06T15:33:02.719000
This would be a more pointed comment if I were, in fact, American.I must admit that being an OSS contributor, I find...
Anonymous · 2011-07-06T18:54:28.781000
I must admit that being an OSS contributor, I find that ripping out one's author name from an OSS project is much more offensive to me than a "mere" (?) naming issue.Feminists or females may be offended by the library name, we may label it as juvenile humor...
I would simply point out that the primary author of this library is a *female* *student*. She may have, like me, thought of Marylin Monroe's famous white dress photo.
I would add that:
- programming for a living, I appreciate humour (even black humour) in software, it enlightens my day
- I find good practice for a port to another language to retain the name of the original, it makes it easier to track
Finally... I am saddened that Natacha decided to get out of the OSS world. We lack females in the programming, and their different point of view cannot be emulated.
If I might, I have one contribution I would like t...
Michael Chermside · 2011-07-07T00:57:25.095000
If I might, I have one contribution I would like to make to the discussion. It is a note to Frank Smit.Dear Frank:
I just wanted to say that I agreed with the PSF’s decision not to engage in censorship and with Steve’s decision to make a personal public statement about the issue. But that put you in a very difficult position: being criticized in a very public forum. I am impressed with and respect the way in which you handled this: explaining that you never intended to cause offense, but simultaneously expressing your willingness to voluntarily change the name to avoid any offense. Reacting this way, rather than expressing your own feelings of being under attack, took maturity and some guts on your part but it was the best thing for the Python community as a whole. (In fact, for the Open Source community as a whole.) I hope everyone addressing this and similar issues can strive to respond this well.
I dont understand the comments about Natacha being...
Brandon Croft · 2011-07-07T02:45:46.962000
I dont understand the comments about Natacha being 'written out of the history' of the project. She's been mentioned as the original author since the beginning of the readme, albiet with longer story up until more people got involved, at which point it became a list of contributors. Tanoku is listed in the credits after Natacha, and Natacha's website is the only hyperlinked entry.Contributor list change: https://github.com/tanoku/upskirt/commit/cfa4e0934de0d1318c179f4b226b48b49b0dfb65#README.markdown
Today: https://github.com/tanoku/upskirt/blob/a87645ed92acee789d9305f26a236ff3d4b3cd62/README.markdown
@anonymous: """Excuse me, but a lit...
Steve · 2011-07-07T04:04:33.408000
@anonymous: """Excuse me, but a literate English speaking person should know that "begs the question" means the rethorical 'petitio principii' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question )"""Well I guess that makes me fucking illiterate, then, doesn't it? Thanks for your contribution :-)
@Michael Chermside: thanks Michael, you expressed ...
Steve · 2011-07-07T04:07:43.304000
@Michael Chermside: thanks Michael, you expressed your admiration for Frank Smit's response better than I was able to (though I tried). It would be nice to think that these issues can be taken seriously in the open source world, and that people of goodwill can make real progress on these complex and troubling issues.Steve, as much as I respect your professional work...
Alitoh · 2011-07-11T21:10:26.679000
Steve, as much as I respect your professional work for he community, I must stand against your anally retentive morals.So what if it's offensive? Just use any other goddamn parser.
Making this much of a big deal over something this retarded is immature from everybody even remotely offended.
The need for political correctness of most people today would be hilarious, if it weren't so sad. Instead of taking the highway and just pointing it out as just a "childish, stupid name", you decided to play pretend like "it's not a big deal" while clearly stating this as "omg! so hurtful for community".
The only people offended by this are stupid people. Smart women will know to not pay any attention and don't mind what some nobody with too much time in his hands names his code. Why can't smart men do the same, I wonder? Man-guilt?
Also, I'm terribly sorry that the tone of my message most likely is aggresive. It's my wish to make it clear that I admire your work and appreciate the community and wish for its well being ... But I don't think something so silly and irrelevant as this is actually doing us any good.
@Frank Railgun sucks, bro. Go buy a taste at seveneleven.
Steve; I have been a huge fan of Python for more ...
sgtrock · 2011-07-11T21:33:21.463000
Steve;I have been a huge fan of Python for more than ten years. I strongly urged the adoption of the language at a very large U.S. corporation. Now I wonder if that loyalty has been misplaced all these years.
The issue that you and Frank are missing is covered quite eloquently by Violet Blue. If you don't know Violet Blue, she has been writing about porn, erotica, sex education, and technology for years. She has written a weekly column in the San Francisco Chronicle, Salon, and ZDNet (which is how I got linked to your blog) as well as several books. When this woman says you're off base on this topic, you had better listen carefully:
“Upskirt” is shorthand for porn (images or video) that features a nonconsensual look up a girl’s skirt or dress.
Because you are a fine, upstanding kind of reader, I’m sure you know very little about online filth such as pornographic subcategories, their nicknames or history. Luckily for you, I am here to go where bald eagles dare.
Back in the early days of porn on the open internet that there was one red-hot minute when upskirt porn was legal. It is, in fact, illegal. Though I don’t think the FOSS community knows that detail - they were just up in arms about what to do when someone submits a package with a name that seems, well, sexist.
Pantyshot is a bird of identical plumage. It’s basically the same thing, but that term (rather than upskirt) is what describes “an upskirt” instance in Japanese anime and manga: the term panchira refers to a panty-shot. Whoever did the naming liked the nonconsensual act so much, they gave it the same name twice.
Get it now? These names are about NONCONSENSUAL ACTS! Frank is rubbing your nose in his fecal matter when he chose Misaka and pretended it didn't mean the exact same thing. The only appropriate step at this point is to remove these libraries from The Cheese Shop. Any other decision by the board would be condoning a misogynistic attitude that has absolutely no place on _any_ FOSS community.
And you wonder why we find it hard to recruit women to FOSS projects.
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