@alitoh and @sgtrock: How fortunate that two such ...
Steve · 2011-07-12T02:03:39.928000
@alitoh and @sgtrock: How fortunate that two such contradictory posts should arrive so close together.
If anyone can tell me how to reconcile these two views I would be grateful. For now the fact that such opposing views coexist tells me I am at least giving equal-opportunity offense.
So my morals are anally retentive (@alitoh), and yet @sgtrock is quite happy to take me to task on behalf Violet Blue, whose views seem generally sound, and yet appear to include the beliefe that "Misaka" is an "illegal porn term" (whatever that is).
While not being a fan of anime myself, a colleague who is has explained the significance of Misaka. As I understand it (and, as always, I am happy to be corrected) the Misaka character is a kick boxer who has taken to wearing boxers to avoid the possibility of being subjected to panty shots. Which is why I thought Smit's renaming was apt, and at least responsive to a community wish to avoid giving unnecessary offense.
Violet Blue is correct in saying that "in an open source community, I kind of think [these issues are] everyone’s problem."
It wasn't desirable to say nothing, as that would have meant acquiescence to a situation which some people doubtless do see as offensive. It wasn't desirable to do too much, because the open source community as a whole is only just starting to come to grips with these issues, and the primary need os for education rather than punishment.
It's easy to go over the top on one side or the other. It's my job to steer a middle path through this minefield (though the post wasn't written in my official capacity). I am doing my best, and the intolerance for other points of view that these last two comments display ("I don't think something so silly and irrelevant as this is actually doing any good" and "Now I wonder if that misplaced loyalty has been misplaced all these years") is unlikely to be helpful in developing the broad consensus on these matters that we have to build across the whole FOSS community.
They aren't easy issues, and they require great sensitivity to handle with respect to a broad range of points of view - more sensitivity than I can sometimes muster. So thank you for your comments. Perhaps you should be talking to each other, not me.
Allow me to tell you how to reconcile our perspect...
Alitoh · 2011-07-12T02:24:20.061000
Allow me to tell you how to reconcile our perspectives.
I'll concede. Because this never really did matter...
And that's exactly my point. It just shouldn't matter. At all. And that so much exageration over something so seemingly stupid shouldn't even be thought about.
However I'll grant people the right to be offended at it and the right to, at the very least, POLITELY request a name change.
I am, nonetheless, abiding by my views; It's silly to overreact over something that, we all agree, is just plain childish and not throughly thought over.
I believe this makes Smit no more nor less a member of our community and to belittle him on this event IS immature and questionable on ourselves.
Again, if I ever seem aggresive, please do overlook that, as I am aware that I can be vulgar in my speaking and I assure you it's not my intention to aggraviate anyone.
@alito : Thanks for your reply. Seems to me we are...
Steve · 2011-07-12T02:41:41.314000
@alito : Thanks for your reply. Seems to me we are way past belittling anyone about this, and Frank Smit certainly seems OK with the way things are. If you grant the right of people to be offended, however, it seems to me you at least owe it to those offended to acknowledge that they might be.
I don't personally have a great deal of time for political correctness, but you need to be aware that some of those offended are so on the basis that names such as "pantyshot" relate to unpleasant personal experiences that people have been unwillingly (and illegally) subjected to. It's a little insulting to them to belittle their views with a blanket statement that "it's silly to overreact" simply because what constitutes an overreaction is not a belief shared across the whole community.
I'm glad you aren't trying to offend anyone (and I have no evidence that you have done so). Sometimes, though, we can cause offense unintentionally with actions which are to us quite acceptable. Is it then our responsibility to apologize for the offense given, or should the response be to tell those offended to "harden up"?
As I said in my last comment, these are difficult issues. I think the FOSS world will be better for bringing them out into the daylight and debating them vigorously.
It certainly doesn't help that political and social debates are nowadays so often framed in terms that would apparently deny those with opposing points of view the right to exist. We must ultimately come up with solutions that everyone* can work with. That isn't going to be easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is.
* for some value of "everyone" that probably does exclude diehard reactionaries who refuse to accommodate other points of view themselves. In the end, if someone isn't going to play nice in the sandbox our only choice is to deny them the right to play in the same sandbox as us.
Steve;
I appreciate the evenhanded tone that you ...
sgtrock · 2011-07-12T14:10:49.788000
Steve;
I appreciate the evenhanded tone that you are keeping through what has been at times a somewhat acrimonious debate. However, I firmly believe that you and Frank still don't have a clue just how bad this makes the Python community look.
My own admittedly angry response comes from my reaction as a parent. I have two stepdaughters and a daughter between the ages of 21 and 16. Now imagine my reaction when I pictured showing off one of my hobbies, Python, to one of them:
"What's this Cheese Shop entry about Pantyshot, Dad? Is that for porn or something?"
"No, that's just a library with a really bad name."
"EEEEWWWWW!!!"
And they would forever think that their father was a major creep.
In my view, the DownBlouse library for .NET has a similar, somewhat creepy feel to it. Less so because it doesn't have quite the same non-consensual connotation, but it's still a name that is bound to make most women feel objectified at best.
The point is that such names simply do not belong in any community which is serious about recruiting women to their ranks. But for heaven's sake, don't just take my word or Violet Blue's word for it.
Try this on instead. Picture yourself describing this Python library and its name's history to your own daughter. Or your wife. Or your sister.
Don't have any of those? How about describing the situation to your mother? Or grandmother? The name choice suddenly doesn't seem so inconsequential, does it?
The best possible solution at this point would be to pick a name with no such connotations whatsoever. Failing that, I strongly urge the board to reverse its position and reject the libraries in question. There is NO place in any healthy FOSS community for disrespect of others.
It is simply as offending to women as nicknaming t...
Dave · 2011-07-12T20:04:05.083000
It is simply as offending to women as nicknaming the author Frank Smut would be offending to the author. Can't the guy grow up?
We need more women to join open source projects because women fight well against serious oppression and they fight quite long battles for freedom.
We always need many good fighters against software patents, MafiAA.
Women are the ones whose voice nobody can crush because "think of the women and children".
This is totally against that.
Someone should tell the author to please sacrifice his LULZ urges a little for the very values he wishes to defend - freedom from censorship, etc.
Women are good fighters in such movements, we want more women in opensource.
This isn't limited to the Python community. R...
Anonymous · 2011-07-14T06:38:56.633000
This isn't limited to the Python community. RVM, one of several Ruby Version Managers, has a command "get head" - https://rvm.beginrescueend.com/rvm/upgrading/
As of about 5 hours ago, tanoku has changed the na...
Brandon Croft · 2011-07-19T03:58:28.636000
As of about 5 hours ago, tanoku has changed the name of upskirt to sundown, which is a name that Natacha may recognize and approve of.
One can only hope so. Dare we count this as a vict...
Steve · 2011-07-19T04:12:31.815000
One can only hope so. Dare we count this as a victory for common sense?
Back from vacation and more bullshit. I thought th...
Frank Smit · 2011-07-20T16:37:25.477000
Back from vacation and more bullshit. I thought this was solved and done.
Violet Blue has some errors in her article so I'm going to ignore it and tries to make my other package, Momoko look bad too.
Do you know how I choose my names? I google "list of japanese names" and choose a name from some list. Not a list of porn stars.
@someonescomment: "Frank is rubbing your nose in his fecal matter when he chose Misaka and pretended it didn't mean the exact same thing."
That's just you making things up or Violet Blue.
@Alitoh: "@Frank Railgun sucks, bro. Go buy a taste at seveneleven."
I don't really care if the anime is worth watching. If I like the name I use it.
For everyone: For me this is problem is solved. When I saved up enough money I will attend a Python conference at the other side of the world and drink a beer with you.
Bye.
"Easy for you to chuckle from your point of v...
Cliff Wells · 2011-08-08T17:37:26.365000
"Easy for you to chuckle from your point of view coming from (I presume) white male privilege"
Have to love the double-standard: "Your opinion is diminished because of my assumptions about your race, gender, or social status".
@alitoh and @sgtrock: How fortunate that two such ...
Steve · 2011-07-12T02:03:39.928000
@alitoh and @sgtrock: How fortunate that two such contradictory posts should arrive so close together.If anyone can tell me how to reconcile these two views I would be grateful. For now the fact that such opposing views coexist tells me I am at least giving equal-opportunity offense.
So my morals are anally retentive (@alitoh), and yet @sgtrock is quite happy to take me to task on behalf Violet Blue, whose views seem generally sound, and yet appear to include the beliefe that "Misaka" is an "illegal porn term" (whatever that is).
While not being a fan of anime myself, a colleague who is has explained the significance of Misaka. As I understand it (and, as always, I am happy to be corrected) the Misaka character is a kick boxer who has taken to wearing boxers to avoid the possibility of being subjected to panty shots. Which is why I thought Smit's renaming was apt, and at least responsive to a community wish to avoid giving unnecessary offense.
Violet Blue is correct in saying that "in an open source community, I kind of think [these issues are] everyone’s problem."
It wasn't desirable to say nothing, as that would have meant acquiescence to a situation which some people doubtless do see as offensive. It wasn't desirable to do too much, because the open source community as a whole is only just starting to come to grips with these issues, and the primary need os for education rather than punishment.
It's easy to go over the top on one side or the other. It's my job to steer a middle path through this minefield (though the post wasn't written in my official capacity). I am doing my best, and the intolerance for other points of view that these last two comments display ("I don't think something so silly and irrelevant as this is actually doing any good" and "Now I wonder if that misplaced loyalty has been misplaced all these years") is unlikely to be helpful in developing the broad consensus on these matters that we have to build across the whole FOSS community.
They aren't easy issues, and they require great sensitivity to handle with respect to a broad range of points of view - more sensitivity than I can sometimes muster. So thank you for your comments. Perhaps you should be talking to each other, not me.
Allow me to tell you how to reconcile our perspect...
Alitoh · 2011-07-12T02:24:20.061000
Allow me to tell you how to reconcile our perspectives.I'll concede. Because this never really did matter...
And that's exactly my point. It just shouldn't matter. At all. And that so much exageration over something so seemingly stupid shouldn't even be thought about.
However I'll grant people the right to be offended at it and the right to, at the very least, POLITELY request a name change.
I am, nonetheless, abiding by my views; It's silly to overreact over something that, we all agree, is just plain childish and not throughly thought over.
I believe this makes Smit no more nor less a member of our community and to belittle him on this event IS immature and questionable on ourselves.
Again, if I ever seem aggresive, please do overlook that, as I am aware that I can be vulgar in my speaking and I assure you it's not my intention to aggraviate anyone.
@alito : Thanks for your reply. Seems to me we are...
Steve · 2011-07-12T02:41:41.314000
@alito : Thanks for your reply. Seems to me we are way past belittling anyone about this, and Frank Smit certainly seems OK with the way things are. If you grant the right of people to be offended, however, it seems to me you at least owe it to those offended to acknowledge that they might be.I don't personally have a great deal of time for political correctness, but you need to be aware that some of those offended are so on the basis that names such as "pantyshot" relate to unpleasant personal experiences that people have been unwillingly (and illegally) subjected to. It's a little insulting to them to belittle their views with a blanket statement that "it's silly to overreact" simply because what constitutes an overreaction is not a belief shared across the whole community.
I'm glad you aren't trying to offend anyone (and I have no evidence that you have done so). Sometimes, though, we can cause offense unintentionally with actions which are to us quite acceptable. Is it then our responsibility to apologize for the offense given, or should the response be to tell those offended to "harden up"?
As I said in my last comment, these are difficult issues. I think the FOSS world will be better for bringing them out into the daylight and debating them vigorously.
It certainly doesn't help that political and social debates are nowadays so often framed in terms that would apparently deny those with opposing points of view the right to exist. We must ultimately come up with solutions that everyone* can work with. That isn't going to be easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is.
* for some value of "everyone" that probably does exclude diehard reactionaries who refuse to accommodate other points of view themselves. In the end, if someone isn't going to play nice in the sandbox our only choice is to deny them the right to play in the same sandbox as us.
Steve; I appreciate the evenhanded tone that you ...
sgtrock · 2011-07-12T14:10:49.788000
Steve;I appreciate the evenhanded tone that you are keeping through what has been at times a somewhat acrimonious debate. However, I firmly believe that you and Frank still don't have a clue just how bad this makes the Python community look.
My own admittedly angry response comes from my reaction as a parent. I have two stepdaughters and a daughter between the ages of 21 and 16. Now imagine my reaction when I pictured showing off one of my hobbies, Python, to one of them:
"What's this Cheese Shop entry about Pantyshot, Dad? Is that for porn or something?"
"No, that's just a library with a really bad name."
"EEEEWWWWW!!!"
And they would forever think that their father was a major creep.
In my view, the DownBlouse library for .NET has a similar, somewhat creepy feel to it. Less so because it doesn't have quite the same non-consensual connotation, but it's still a name that is bound to make most women feel objectified at best.
The point is that such names simply do not belong in any community which is serious about recruiting women to their ranks. But for heaven's sake, don't just take my word or Violet Blue's word for it.
Try this on instead. Picture yourself describing this Python library and its name's history to your own daughter. Or your wife. Or your sister.
Don't have any of those? How about describing the situation to your mother? Or grandmother? The name choice suddenly doesn't seem so inconsequential, does it?
The best possible solution at this point would be to pick a name with no such connotations whatsoever. Failing that, I strongly urge the board to reverse its position and reject the libraries in question. There is NO place in any healthy FOSS community for disrespect of others.
It is simply as offending to women as nicknaming t...
Dave · 2011-07-12T20:04:05.083000
It is simply as offending to women as nicknaming the author Frank Smut would be offending to the author.Can't the guy grow up?
We need more women to join open source projects because women fight well against serious oppression and they fight quite long battles for freedom.
We always need many good fighters against software patents, MafiAA.
Women are the ones whose voice nobody can crush because "think of the women and children".
This is totally against that.
Someone should tell the author to please sacrifice his LULZ urges a little for the very values he wishes to defend - freedom from censorship, etc.
Women are good fighters in such movements, we want more women in opensource.
This isn't limited to the Python community. R...
Anonymous · 2011-07-14T06:38:56.633000
This isn't limited to the Python community. RVM, one of several Ruby Version Managers, has a command "get head" - https://rvm.beginrescueend.com/rvm/upgrading/As of about 5 hours ago, tanoku has changed the na...
Brandon Croft · 2011-07-19T03:58:28.636000
As of about 5 hours ago, tanoku has changed the name of upskirt to sundown, which is a name that Natacha may recognize and approve of.One can only hope so. Dare we count this as a vict...
Steve · 2011-07-19T04:12:31.815000
One can only hope so. Dare we count this as a victory for common sense?Back from vacation and more bullshit. I thought th...
Frank Smit · 2011-07-20T16:37:25.477000
Back from vacation and more bullshit. I thought this was solved and done.Violet Blue has some errors in her article so I'm going to ignore it and tries to make my other package, Momoko look bad too.
Do you know how I choose my names? I google "list of japanese names" and choose a name from some list. Not a list of porn stars.
@someonescomment: "Frank is rubbing your nose in his fecal matter when he chose Misaka and pretended it didn't mean the exact same thing."
That's just you making things up or Violet Blue.
@Alitoh: "@Frank Railgun sucks, bro. Go buy a taste at seveneleven."
I don't really care if the anime is worth watching. If I like the name I use it.
For everyone: For me this is problem is solved. When I saved up enough money I will attend a Python conference at the other side of the world and drink a beer with you.
Bye.
"Easy for you to chuckle from your point of v...
Cliff Wells · 2011-08-08T17:37:26.365000
"Easy for you to chuckle from your point of view coming from (I presume) white male privilege"Have to love the double-standard: "Your opinion is diminished because of my assumptions about your race, gender, or social status".
Older comments · Page 7 of 8 · Newer comments
Back to post